• Do you prefer being the Dom or Sub?

    1249325464
    evey [sign in to see picture]
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    Citation needed! :p I'd be interested to know if that's the case. Wonder if any decent research has been done into it.

    1249329347
    rjcww [sign in to see picture]
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    Submissive/bottom/masochist :-D

    1249329824
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    evey wrote:

    Citation needed! :p I'd be interested to know if that's the case. Wonder if any decent research has been done into it.

    Even though I got just a little bit told off the other day for it

    To me it makes evolutionary sense for things to be how they are. I imagine theres plenty of research into it!

    1249330116
    evey [sign in to see picture]
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    Hmm, I mean, I'd be interested to see figures for dommy and subby people and what kind of people they tend to be. I've heard much anecdotal stuff both ways ('Oh yes, all men really love being dominated, I've found.' 'All the women I know are submissive.' etc.) but I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence tbh.

    Also, there are probably many social factors involved as well, so it's probably quite a complex thing.

    Anyone who knows of any studies that have been done into this, I'd be interested to see.

    1249331183
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Avrielle_Aniko wrote:

    There are more submissive women than men, generally. And it wouldn't surpise me if there are more ladies here. But many men like the idea of being dominated as role switching play. Like the men will wear the trousers in the relationship but will like to switch over in the bedroom,and have the woman take control. I know my man likes that sometimes, but as said before, I'm hopeless. It also really helps for a man to be submissive to a woman when she has full confidence, but for some men that can be reason for wanting to dominate her even more!

    I believe I have explained absolutely nothing at all by that statement... :-l

    Regardless of your explanation, I understand completely because I'm like that too. Sometimes I love demanding a blowjob getting it, pulling her hair, squeezing a nipple (or two!) and being completely fucked out of it and seeing the huge grin at the end.

    But being in a loving relationship means I also want to see my partner really happy. Me being submissive sometimes is (at least in my head) me giving her everything she could want on demand which should mean shes happy and very pleasured! In reality it might make her uncomfortable sometimes... as it does you.

    1249778041
    Malteser81 [sign in to see picture]
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    I muh prefer to be submissive. I like the idea of being almost forced to do somthing thats classed as naughty. My OH and I always know each others limits though and this never ends up in a situation where its been taken too far. I do however enjoy tying up my OH every now and again though. Nothing like a bit of teasing to keep a relationship fresh!

    1249817027
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Maybe there are more ladies here? Women tend to be more submissive I think. [...] To me it makes evolutionary sense for things to be how they are. I imagine theres plenty of research into it!

    If there is, I'd like to see any which reliably and reputably supports your position.

    As I have pointed out to you before, approximately 90% of all the kinky people I know are submissive or switch, and generalisations about gender and topping and bottoming in evolution bothers me a lot because what I know about evolution contradicts what you say. After all, there are many bird and mammal species in which the female is larger and does most of the hunting and gathering whilst the males pose around looking pretty, so your assertions make no sense to me.

    I feel that you repeating your beliefs that women as a gender tend to be more submissive and that evolution supports your belief, whilst at the same time providing no evidence of any kind to support your conclusions, is sexist as well as inaccurate.

    I am happy for you to express whatever beliefs you have, as beliefs. However, expressing your beliefs as if they were based on scientific fact when you present no supporting evidence of any kind is something I do have a problem with, especially when those beliefs exclude and inappropriately pigeonhole me based on my gender.

    So I'd appreciate it if you would kindly take a little more care to express your beliefs as your personal beliefs.

    Thank you.

    1249824506
    Horny Pony [sign in to see picture]
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    I guess I am dominant but I am hoping to edge my man to occasionally dominating me in the very near future, . I would imagine that me being dominant or submissive would depend on the other person(s) I am with.

    1249825596
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    A quick, maybe not entirely accurate headcount on here of about 36 comments leads me to believe that the majority of relationships here are male dominant in the bedroom. 8 Dom females or Sub males actively expressed who is usually dominant in their relationship. 28 Dom males or Sub females expressed who is usually in charge in the bedroom. Some answers I found didn't answer in away that was clear, so if you do a count I'm sure you will get slightly different answers but the majority of relationships on this forum appear to involve a primarily dominant male and submissive female. I make simply an observation not a judgement.

    I do not deny people switch, I do and I love it! But it doesn't detract from conclusion that many more females prefer to enjoy the submissive role on this forum and indeed the general population. [1] See this source also for the quote "In contrast to men's sexual dominance and women's sexual submissiveness, the opposite preferences represent an evolutionary enigma" by a respected evoltionary biologist. [2]

    Source 3 desribes how natural selection suggests that "the most numerous sex differences are likely to be found in the domains of sexuality and reproduction" By a Evolutionary Psychologist. I admit not direct evidence to suggest male dominence and female submissiveness is the most prevalent sexual behaviour in humans but it does suggest there is a difference.

    This source (4) suggests there are differences in genders. It does make it clear that individual differences outweigh that but that was never in despute. Many people would agree that women are often more warm and open about their feelings than men. A commonly held belief is not incorrect simply because you find it disagreeable. To agree does NOT imply sexism, the assumption of which I strongly resent.

    Yes. Plenty of species do have dominant, larger or 'tougher' females but I don't remember being a peacock, spider or any other species. If you accept that other species DO generally have a gender which is usually more dominant then why is it so hard to believe humans do too? I find it hard to believe natural selection 'skipped' us completely. We can and do act outside our simple biology but nothing leads me to believe it doesn't still have an effect.

    Another paper suggests that abusive partners are more abusive when their partners are in their most fertile years as an 'anti-cuckkholdy(sp?) device'. I feel that once again demonstates people are still dictated to by their evolutionary history. [5]

    Once again I say I do not pass judgement, I have no concern about your private life. It is not about pigeonholing you. You take many things personally and you pigeonhole yourself with that view and seem to persecute others for doing it. You were offended by my previous use of the world 'couple' The majority of the world do engage in coupling behaviour, that the world behaves like that should not offend you, neither should you feel the world is excluding you. If I wore size 16 shoes should I complain in Windors if they don't have my size? The world is not out to exclude you. By believing so you exclude yourself.

    I am an egalitarian, I believe everyone should have the same chances, oppurtunities etc.. but to suggest an observation of differences are pigeonholing is ludicrous. People ARE different. If I were to suggest that men are more likely to commit violent crimes then that phase makes NO claim that most or all men will. It simply states a fact. Simply because my whole way of speakin does not resolve around Lubyanka, it does not mean I am sexist, intolerant or ignorant. It means I use language.

    [1]. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17187017?ordinalpos=17&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    [2]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Flegr

    [3]. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12666741?ordinalpos=23&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    [4]. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11519935?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

    [5]. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18415011?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    1249827067
    Firecracker [sign in to see picture]
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    hmmmm, after last nights shenanigans in the bedroom I am def a convert to dom

    1249827317
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Glad you enjoyed yourself!

    1249827584
    Firecracker [sign in to see picture]
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    bit of an untimely response following yours

    1249828305
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    The majority of the world do engage in coupling behaviour, that the world behaves like that should not offend you, neither should you feel the world is excluding you. If I wore size 16 shoes should I complain in Windors if they don't have my size? The world is not out to exclude you. By believing so you exclude yourself.

    [...] Simply because my whole way of speakin does not resolve around Lubyanka, it does not mean I am sexist, intolerant or ignorant. It means I use language.

    Thank you for quoting your sources, I appreciate it very much.

    I would also appreciate you expressing your position without resorting to personal remarks against those who disagree with you.

    1249829508
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Lubyanka wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    The majority of the world do engage in coupling behaviour, that the world behaves like that should not offend you, neither should you feel the world is excluding you. If I wore size 16 shoes should I complain in Windors if they don't have my size? The world is not out to exclude you. By believing so you exclude yourself.

    [...] Simply because my whole way of speakin does not resolve around Lubyanka, it does not mean I am sexist, intolerant or ignorant. It means I use language.

    Thank you for quoting your sources, I appreciate it very much.

    I would also appreciate you expressing your position without resorting to personal remarks against those who disagree with you.

    I was trying to express that I feel you sometimes seem to find issues with some statement when it has none and 'nitpick'. That it is not an issue about my statement but your personal beliefs of it, so I should not adapt my language anymore than I usually would to suit only you.

    I hope you now understand what I intended to say and I apologise as it was worded badly.

    1249830015
    evey [sign in to see picture]
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    Thanks for giving some sources, WandA. In your first source, I notice that 20.5% of women chose the 'dominant partner' option, while 19.8% of women chose the 'submissive partner' option. I wouldn't call that a massive difference tbh. If anything it implies that there is a small difference in this study. It is a shame that all we can see of the study is this abstract, which is sadly written in quite poor and hard to understand English, as I would be interested to know the numbers surveyed, and more about the methodology of the study (perhaps I've just missed the link to the actual study, in which case could you point it out to me?). If we assume that the methodology and sampling *was* good enough for this to be representative of the larger population (which as I say, isn't really clear), then all it really says is that more men would prefer to have a submissive partner than women would. Which is interesting but I wouldn't say it supports your 'women are mostly submissive' theory.

    Your other sources are also interesting, but not directly related to your theory.

    I'd be interested to know exactly what you mean by 'dominant' in an evolutionary sense; it seems to me that there are many potential meanings for this, such as physical strength (eg, in fighting scenarios), physical endurance (eg. surviving childbirth), and so on, and it also occurs to me that chosen powerplay within a relationship is quite different to this.

    Many people would agree that women are often more warm and open about their feelings than men. A commonly held belief is not incorrect simply because you find it disagreeable.

    This could also be put the other way, of course, and it is also true that a commonly held belief is not correct simply because you find it agreeable.

    Also, I should add that I found this problematic:

    The world is not out to exclude you. By believing so you exclude yourself.

    There are many ways in which different groups of people are marginalised in our society, and their experiences ignored, and denying this isn't particularly helpful, I don't feel.

    Anyway, interesting discussion, and I hope it doesn't become personal, as it's something worth talking calmly and rationally about.

    1249830281
    evey [sign in to see picture]
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    I also meant to say that, while people's responses here are interesting, the people who have written on this thread to state their dom/sub tendencies are a small, self-selected sample of a small, self-selected sample (people who post on this board in the first place). So I don't particularly think it's valid to extrapolate that out to the whole of the human race.

    Basically, I'm not saying that it is untrue that women tend to be more submissive than men, rather that I haven't seen evidence that convinces me of it.

    Hmm, fascinating though this is, I should really get on with some work, heh.

    1249830363
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I was trying to express that I feel you sometimes seem to find issues with some statement when it has none and 'nitpick'. That it is not an issue about my statement but your personal beliefs of it, so I should not adapt my language anymore than I usually would to suit only you.

    I hope you now understand what I intended to say and I apologise as it was worded badly.

    I prefer to be asked about my personal beliefs rather than having them presented to me as assumptions from somebody else.

    If I express my feelings about something which is important to me, then I think it's clear that it's about something important to me, because I would have no reason to make a point which was unimportant to me. I also have no reason to denigrate anybody else just for the sake of it, as that would benefit nobody. I personally wouldn't consider it respectful to characterise another person's views as "nitpicking" if the views were important to them but unimportant to me. I made my points because they were important to me in general, and not because I felt that I was asking you to accommodate only me at other people's expense. I think that conclusion was unfair.

    I also think it was unfair for you to characterise my requests as unreasonable. If you decline to honour my requests, then fair enough. I do appreciate your apology. Thank you.

    1249834772
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    I started the thread, with the intention of talking about dominance and submissiveness in a sexual context. As you quite rightly said there are many potential means to dominant so I started it just wondering how people felt themselves about how they see themselves.

    As I said I do believe there are gender differences, i don't see any problems in making observations as long as all individuals are treated as individuals. Issues arise when some people take them observations and feel inferior or supiour without considering individual needs.

    Evolution, natural selection and sexual selection are big topics, contain some ideas some find disturbing and are as such controversial. I'd desribe myself as a 99.93% athiest so for me evolution etc are fact. We have no other explanation. As such the closest we have to our origins are based on our understanding or evolution. So for that reason I see no way we can be exempt from the evolutionary cycle.

    I believe this would explain the sub dom issue a bit. Biologically women are more valuable than males and as such males wish to protect females. I believe things like this influence and explain some of the gender differences. With modern civillisation gender is not so much an issue but I still believes it has evolutionary over hangs.

    Many people would agree that women are often more warm and open about their feelings than men. A commonly held belief is not incorrect simply because you find it disagreeable.

    This could also be put the other way, of course, and it is also true that a commonly held belief is not correct simply because you find it agreeable.

    I totally agree! I was however simply making the point that some common beliefs may be true so they should not just be wrote off (More men being dom etc..). We all make plenty of true observations, because we do not colloct data on it does not detract from the truth. The assumption that women are more open about thier feelings was self reported in that study so there may be some element of truth there to the commonly held assumption. I think it is a common belief that men are often more dominant in the bedroom than women. It is hard to find studies on the topic but I think even the personal evidence on this forum suggests so with the 'headcount'.

    The world is not out to exclude you. By believing so you exclude yourself.

    There are many ways in which different groups of people are marginalised in our society, and their experiences ignored, and denying this isn't particularly helpful, I don't feel.

    I don't really want to go into a debate or arguement about people's words here. Personally I'd not like to argue or potentially upset anyone again so I'll talk about it in very general terms.

    But I completely agree that many people are ignored and denied and shouldn't be but through others ignorance not always the language they use.

    What I felt was an issue for me was that by picking fault at, what I consider to be everyday language it marginalises the person unhappy with the language from me and others who consider it to be normal inoffensive language. So it is not a case of the world excluding anyone but some people might be divorcing themselves from the world by their intolerance to others everyday language. Language means different things to different people so I wouldn't judge someones motives based entirely on spoken word.

    I believe it would be best to look at language and try to understand what they meant as opposed to religiously following what was semantically said. I believe context is often more important than the words used. It can be hard to do that online.

    Some people hate the term 'dear' as they find it patronising. I'd rather judge it by their action not words.

    "There you go dear, have a free coffee on me." That is someone being polite and nice not patronising.

    1249835432
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Feel free to post evey.

    I'd rather just leave my piece as it is now. I don't wish to make enemies or argue on here and I don't think things will cool down if I keep what I have to say open. You raised some good points so thank you.

    Ok Lubyanka. I guess we both have alot to say sometimes and some very different opinions. See you around the forum!

    1249836144
    evey [sign in to see picture]
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    I was however simply making the point that some common beliefs may be true so they should not just be wrote off (More men being dom etc..). We all make plenty of true observations, because we do not colloct data on it does not detract from the truth.

    I'm not writing off that belief as being untrue, as I said, I'm simply saying that I would need to see good evidence to believe it, as I would with anything. I'm sure you would agree that just because many people believe something, it is not necessarily true.

    Essentially, as you say, there seems to be very little research done into this area, which is a shame imo.

    I agree that the context in which a comment is made is very important, and also that it is sometimes hard to get someone's 'tone of voice' over t'internet. However, for me language is very important, and the words people choose *do* have impacts on others (for example, words to describe different ethnic groups) and a word or phrase that one person finds 'everyday' or inoffensive may offend others, and I don't believe that that is unimportant. If I used a word innocently, not meaning offence, and someone or a group of people took offence to it, instead of dismissing their viewpoint, I would try to examine what exactly in my words they had found offensive. (eg. t'other day I heard two older white women using an unpleasant word for black people in their conversation. Even if for those people it was an everyday word, it doesn't mean that anyone being offended by it would be wrong.)

    Anyhoo, that wasn't aimed at you specifically, just a general observation.

    Also, I don't enjoy being called 'dear' or similar by people I don't know.

    That is someone being polite and nice not patronising.

    That's your opinion; I generally find using terms of endearment to strangers inappropriate. Just as you have the right not to mind being called 'dear', I have the right to be irritated by it.

    Hopefully you can see what I mean. And we can probably agree to disagree on the dom/sub thing. :p

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