• episiotomy

    1284553059
    Vampyrewillow [sign in to see picture]
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    I have noticed a similar theme in this, once you have the baby you forget the pain, however to me, someone who doesn't want a baby that would be worse than the pain, having a baby handed to me, if i was to ever give birth it would be in a surrogate way i suppose and all the scary birth stuff wouldn't go away for me as i wouldn't have a baby,

    the things i have read have indicated that doctors do give episiotomies when they are not needed, and actually in america i read that they are performed on something like 80% of pregnancies, there are alot of people begging for them to be taken down from regular practice and for them to be reserved for emergencies as they cause muscle damage etc.

    all of this birth stuff would put me off becoming a surrogate as i would not have the baby at the end, just the horrible procedures and healing time,

    there are so many incompetant staff out there in every profession, but i get very annoyed when it is in a care profession, for instance midwives telling mothers upsetting things that aren't true, i read about a gp who told a mother that if she was not going to circumsize she would have to pull her sons foreskin back and clean it everyday.

    how did these people telling these people wrong things ever qualify, i can't stand the idea that someone puts all their time and effort into qulaifying to become something and then all their enthusiasm dissapears and they hate their jobs,

    if i ever become that cynical about working with children then i hope i would persue a different career, because it is not fair on the children!

    VW x

    1284559023
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    The problem with some jobs can be the other benefits. Some GPs like the cash and job security, some teachers want the holidays. I think some jobs just wear you down... GPs are so used to dealing with idiots anyone who speaks out is assumed to wrongly be an idiot.

    I considered the police force, done my work experience there, but I could tell it slowly destroys your faith in humanity dealing with the sickest and worst humans there are everyday.

    Some people of course are just knobs and they have no excuses. I think you should never be afraid to get a second opinion in the case of medicine since many things do have lasting effects.

    1284559232
    telemachus [sign in to see picture]
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    Vampyrewillow wrote:

    I have noticed a similar theme in this, once you have the baby you forget the pain, however to me, someone who doesn't want a baby that would be worse than the pain, having a baby handed to me, if i was to ever give birth it would be in a surrogate way i suppose and all the scary birth stuff wouldn't go away for me as i wouldn't have a baby,

    the things i have read have indicated that doctors do give episiotomies when they are not needed, and actually in america i read that they are performed on something like 80% of pregnancies, there are alot of people begging for them to be taken down from regular practice and for them to be reserved for emergencies as they cause muscle damage etc.

    all of this birth stuff would put me off becoming a surrogate as i would not have the baby at the end, just the horrible procedures and healing time,

    there are so many incompetant staff out there in every profession, but i get very annoyed when it is in a care profession, for instance midwives telling mothers upsetting things that aren't true, i read about a gp who told a mother that if she was not going to circumsize she would have to pull her sons foreskin back and clean it everyday.

    how did these people telling these people wrong things ever qualify, i can't stand the idea that someone puts all their time and effort into qulaifying to become something and then all their enthusiasm dissapears and they hate their jobs,

    if i ever become that cynical about working with children then i hope i would persue a different career, because it is not fair on the children!

    VW x

    Yes - this is something that I mentioned in my initial post, the increasing way in which doctors rather than midwives are being included in birth. This is worst in the US, where midwives are just about non-existent. Caesarians are normal practice, and becoming increasingly so in this country. And not just birth - routine internal examinations seem to be the norm now.

    The best thing is to be well informed. I was overdue with number 2 (as I was also first time) and was resisting induction (as I feel once you start it is a spiral to emergency section), I wanted monitoring. I didn't want internal examinations all the time. The doctor I was seeing drew a crude graph with "gestation" on one side and "DEATH" on the other as a way to convince me to be induced. He told me that it was likely that if I resisted induction my baby would die.

    Fortunately, I had done my research and wasn't swayed by him. Of course, there is a risk and I would not dismiss this but his tactics were shocking. It seems to me that doctors have a different agenda to midwives, and it is one that does no favours to labouring women. He wanted me on a bed, with a drip in my arm and someone sticking their fingers inside every few hours. Fortunately, I was knowledgeable enough (and bossy enough) to get what I wanted, not what he wanted.

    Women need to be better informed. They need to be asking why someone wants to perform an episiotomy? Is it really best to start induction? What are the options? What do you gain from doing an internal examination? What happens when you stick that drip in my arm? Rather than just blindly saying "yes, you are a doctor, you must know better"

    1284559914
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Related to what you say Tele I listened to a podcast today discussing the gap between research and clinical science. I think a great point made was that docs can be likened to technicians or mechanics. I think that very much sums it up. Many docs will do what is best for the body, playing the odds while ignoring the 'software'. I think that is a key strength of midwifes, the understanding of the whole situation.

    I think that's why information and different opinions are so important.

    1284560276
    Vampyrewillow [sign in to see picture]
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    telemachus wrote:

    Vampyrewillow wrote:

    I have noticed a similar theme in this, once you have the baby you forget the pain, however to me, someone who doesn't want a baby that would be worse than the pain, having a baby handed to me, if i was to ever give birth it would be in a surrogate way i suppose and all the scary birth stuff wouldn't go away for me as i wouldn't have a baby,

    the things i have read have indicated that doctors do give episiotomies when they are not needed, and actually in america i read that they are performed on something like 80% of pregnancies, there are alot of people begging for them to be taken down from regular practice and for them to be reserved for emergencies as they cause muscle damage etc.

    all of this birth stuff would put me off becoming a surrogate as i would not have the baby at the end, just the horrible procedures and healing time,

    there are so many incompetant staff out there in every profession, but i get very annoyed when it is in a care profession, for instance midwives telling mothers upsetting things that aren't true, i read about a gp who told a mother that if she was not going to circumsize she would have to pull her sons foreskin back and clean it everyday.

    how did these people telling these people wrong things ever qualify, i can't stand the idea that someone puts all their time and effort into qulaifying to become something and then all their enthusiasm dissapears and they hate their jobs,

    if i ever become that cynical about working with children then i hope i would persue a different career, because it is not fair on the children!

    VW x

    Yes - this is something that I mentioned in my initial post, the increasing way in which doctors rather than midwives are being included in birth. This is worst in the US, where midwives are just about non-existent. Caesarians are normal practice, and becoming increasingly so in this country. And not just birth - routine internal examinations seem to be the norm now.

    The best thing is to be well informed. I was overdue with number 2 (as I was also first time) and was resisting induction (as I feel once you start it is a spiral to emergency section), I wanted monitoring. I didn't want internal examinations all the time. The doctor I was seeing drew a crude graph with "gestation" on one side and "DEATH" on the other as a way to convince me to be induced. He told me that it was likely that if I resisted induction my baby would die.

    Fortunately, I had done my research and wasn't swayed by him. Of course, there is a risk and I would not dismiss this but his tactics were shocking. It seems to me that doctors have a different agenda to midwives, and it is one that does no favours to labouring women. He wanted me on a bed, with a drip in my arm and someone sticking their fingers inside every few hours. Fortunately, I was knowledgeable enough (and bossy enough) to get what I wanted, not what he wanted.

    Women need to be better informed. They need to be asking why someone wants to perform an episiotomy? Is it really best to start induction? What are the options? What do you gain from doing an internal examination? What happens when you stick that drip in my arm? Rather than just blindly saying "yes, you are a doctor, you must know better"

    Yes definainately women need to be more informed, it worries me as my cousins girlfriend is now pregnant with twins and to say she is ditzy is a huge understatement and i just worry she is going to end up bullied into something she doesn't want!

    there is an american site that i was reading the other night that i found shocking and interesting, my ob said what? for some reason it isn't working for me today but some of the things women are told by professionals are truly shocking!

    i used to be one of the people who blindly go yes doctor will do doctor but now i have taken to saying why, as my boyfriend has epileptic fits and had one in a shop and got sent to the hospital and they just put the thing in him for a drip (i've totally blanked on the word) where they put a needle in your hand or whatever, anyway he didn't need this but they didn't wait to find out he was epileptic or check his files they just hooked him up! it shocked me and if i had been with him in the hospital i would have said why are you doing that? he is epileptic he doesn't need to be here! but as nobody had got to hospital yet they had him all hooked up, i was shocked when he told me!

    VW x

    1284585119
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    CCW I admire anyone who can be that selfless when it comes to kids. I know I couldn't - and am not (since I know my pain condition can be passed on and will probably have kids regardless - though it's a little more complicated than that).

    Tele I think you're right, patient information is very important with something as important as child birth, and unfortunately it's difficult to get reliable information.

    Though I think Doctors deserve more credit than they are getting - many doctors do an excellent job - I agree things aren't ideal or perfect, but it's better than in many countries and doctors often generally do look out for their patient's best interests.

    Adx

    1284585999
    toxycat [sign in to see picture]
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    mmm noticed you mentioned about csections and i know for alot of women nowadays the option the elect for a csection seems like the better option.......i find it quite scary.......iv had two....both emergency and i had an horrific time recovering.

    When i was in labour with my second they were going to let me try for a normal birth...however after 36 hours in labour and me not getting anywhere...again the decision was made to give me a csection...........first of all i was on the operating table for longer than normal as they were afraid they had accidently cut my bladder.........then the dressings they put over my wound..i had an allergic reaction to them........became infected......they literally had to peel the dressings off taking skin with them......so i was left with open oozing wounds to also contend with along with the major surgery id just had.

    Then to add fuel to the fire....they sent me home after one night.......due to 'needing the beds'............i couldnt physically walk.......they actually grabbed my belongings and put them in the babys cot....and wheeled them down the corridor to discharge me quicker.

    Anyway my wound became completely infected.......and coupled with the agonising wounds around it from the dressings.... i was in a mess......i had a nurse coming over every week giving me wound care.....i was on iodine dressings, even had to put this powder on that was meant to aid wound healing...............anyway it took months for the wound to finally close up.......and to add insult to injury.....they had closed me up lobsided....so the scar looked horrendous!!......it was awful......felt so ill and was in so much pain................and all this time i had to nurse a tiny baby.....really not good.

    Anyway the point im trying to make is please consider all options and dont just think that electing for a csection is the easier option as the healing time is a long one and so many complications can happen. Obviously this surgery saved both my babies and i wouldnt of thought twice about having the surgery.

    The fact as well that hospitals are so quick to get you discharged for the beds is also a hindrence to healing........i was in for 5 days on my first.....and healed alot quicker with much less complications.......the aftercare is shocking now.......and i feel for new mums having to go though it..........

    Phew havent spoke about that in a while.................sorry to waffle on!!

    1284589760
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Sorry you had such a tough time of it TC! Sounds dreadful - the idea with elected C sections though is that the planning makes it a lot easier than emergency ones. Obviously cutting a person practically in half requires a big decision but for me personally, it has to be done. I have a connective tissue disorder and my skin is dreadful - I have major issues with tearing now (I almost permanently have a hole in my skin somewhere) and I have dry and tight skin that has very little elasticity added into super strong muscles to make up for my useless connective tissue. I know there's no way I'm getting a baby out because even walking can rip my sensitive skin. I'd rather not risk it and not require an emergency section so a planned one is the best to go.

    For me, that is a huge decision too because my skin is unlikely to heal great due to my condition and with poor connective tissue there are only so many sections I could have before it'd become too dangerous. Anaesthetic also doesn't work very well so I'd have to plan well enough in advance to figure out which pain killing method will work.

    This is all assuming my body can withstand pregnancy as dodgy joints can = immobility during pregnancy as the pelvic and lower back becomes too loose, and assuming I can even have kids (with endometriosis, infertility can occur).

    I know you're mainly aiming to discourage people who think it's a quick solve all decision but just thought I'd explain my decision making too because for me at least, many factors have affected it :)

    Adx

    1284589885
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Also - to add - though I'm sure it won't help you at all TC - but annoyingly there is a postcode lottery. Luckily for me, I've only ever had fantastic doctors (barr one or two) especially at consultant level so I do know good care exists, it's just a massive shame that not everyone has access to it! :/

    Adx

    1284589982
    CurlyCoupleWife [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    This makes me sad. I know it's a bit cliché but speaking on the chat you and CC seem great people who care, care about stuff/issues in general, I assume you would make a good parent (the care shown for a potential child is a good demonstration too) from the sensibilities you display.

    Are they still ruled out? I wouldn't strike them off now if you still really want 'em. I hope you're happy with what ever course you have chosen CCW!

    Thanks Wanda (and sweetlove, telemachus and ads )

    There is a world of difference in my head between 6 in 100 and 50 in 100 babies having diabetes. We definitely want children, I'm in the process of shifting weight (it makes it easier to regulate blood-sugar) in preparation.

    There are some tablets I need to come off of beforehand too that would cause severe birth defects or miscarriage (ridiculously high odds, just don't do it). they reckon you need to be off them for 6 months so lets call it a year just in case.

    Whilst when I was younger I wanted a bigger family we're going to go for one. I'll do all I can to ensure it has the best chance I can offer it of being healthy.

    Difficult and fraught with guilt before I even do it - I constantly wonder whether I'm being selfish for wanting my own child...

    1284590407
    Vampyrewillow [sign in to see picture]
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    CurlyCoupleWife wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    This makes me sad. I know it's a bit cliché but speaking on the chat you and CC seem great people who care, care about stuff/issues in general, I assume you would make a good parent (the care shown for a potential child is a good demonstration too) from the sensibilities you display.

    Are they still ruled out? I wouldn't strike them off now if you still really want 'em. I hope you're happy with what ever course you have chosen CCW!

    Thanks Wanda (and sweetlove, telemachus and ads )

    There is a world of difference in my head between 6 in 100 and 50 in 100 babies having diabetes. We definitely want children, I'm in the process of shifting weight (it makes it easier to regulate blood-sugar) in preparation.

    There are some tablets I need to come off of beforehand too that would cause severe birth defects or miscarriage (ridiculously high odds, just don't do it). they reckon you need to be off them for 6 months so lets call it a year just in case.

    Whilst when I was younger I wanted a bigger family we're going to go for one. I'll do all I can to ensure it has the best chance I can offer it of being healthy.

    Difficult and fraught with guilt before I even do it - I constantly wonder whether I'm being selfish for wanting my own child...

    You are definately not being selfish, look at all the fantastic precautions you are making to ensure you have a healthy child, and look how many mums get knocked up and drink and smoke their way through pregnancy not caring of the impact it makes on their child.

    i get called selfish for not wanting a child at all, which is something i find astonishing!

    never worry what other people think because if you are planning a pregnancy with such precision then you are not being selfish at all, you are doing all you can,

    VW x

    1284590807
    CurlyCoupleWife [sign in to see picture]
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    I don't see how, in an overpopulated world how anyone can be accused of being selfish for not having children... it doesn't make sense.

    Thanks for your words of support - I'm not really worried what other people make of my decisions, I'm more worried about the consequences of my decisions upon the life we intend to bring into the world.

    1284592004
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    CurlyCoupleWife wrote:

    Thanks Wanda (and sweetlove, telemachus and ads )

    There is a world of difference in my head between 6 in 100 and 50 in 100 babies having diabetes. We definitely want children, I'm in the process of shifting weight (it makes it easier to regulate blood-sugar) in preparation.

    There are some tablets I need to come off of beforehand too that would cause severe birth defects or miscarriage (ridiculously high odds, just don't do it). they reckon you need to be off them for 6 months so lets call it a year just in case.

    Whilst when I was younger I wanted a bigger family we're going to go for one. I'll do all I can to ensure it has the best chance I can offer it of being healthy.

    Difficult and fraught with guilt before I even do it - I constantly wonder whether I'm being selfish for wanting my own child...

    Ahhh this makes me feel all happy! I hope you achieve in your goal CCW - you and CC seem like you will make excellent parents some day :)

    I don't think it's selfish, well, no more selfish than fulfilling any other desire without harming anyone - having a child is a huge committment - making sure it happens on your terms as best you can is understandable.

    Adxx.

    1284592006
    titania [sign in to see picture]
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    I've had two children, the first in hospital and the second a home birth. With the first I had a fairly minor tear which required a few stitches. I remember it being uncomfortable for a couple of weeks but it seemed to heal fairly quickly. With my second I didn't think I had torn but concluded after a few days that I'd had a minor tear as there was some discomfort. Again, it healed very quickly.

    I don't think the tearing has caused me ongoing problems but giving birth has. I've had my kids in my thirties and have problems with constipation, thrush and a constant urge to pee due to an area of muscle weakness in my genital area. This is the sort of thing that I suspect is likely to be made worse by having a cut rather than a tear. I think minor tears are very common and generally heal well and believe that (in the UK at least) episotomies are reserved for situations where it is considered a serious tear may occur.

    1284592134
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    CurlyCoupleWife wrote:

    I don't see how, in an overpopulated world how anyone can be accused of being selfish for not having children... it doesn't make sense.

    Agreed - I admire anyone who comes to a decision like that, or indeed having a child - as long as the decision has taken time, thought and care, then many well informed decisions are admirable.

    Adx

    1284593103
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    CurlyCoupleWife wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    This makes me sad. I know it's a bit cliché but speaking on the chat you and CC seem great people who care, care about stuff/issues in general, I assume you would make a good parent (the care shown for a potential child is a good demonstration too) from the sensibilities you display.

    Are they still ruled out? I wouldn't strike them off now if you still really want 'em. I hope you're happy with what ever course you have chosen CCW!

    Thanks Wanda (and sweetlove, telemachus and ads )

    There is a world of difference in my head between 6 in 100 and 50 in 100 babies having diabetes. We definitely want children, I'm in the process of shifting weight (it makes it easier to regulate blood-sugar) in preparation.

    There are some tablets I need to come off of beforehand too that would cause severe birth defects or miscarriage (ridiculously high odds, just don't do it). they reckon you need to be off them for 6 months so lets call it a year just in case.

    Whilst when I was younger I wanted a bigger family we're going to go for one. I'll do all I can to ensure it has the best chance I can offer it of being healthy.

    Difficult and fraught with guilt before I even do it - I constantly wonder whether I'm being selfish for wanting my own child...

    I agree about it being slightly selfish about being life in to this world.

    However, every time I get in a car rather than walk I'm being slightly selfish to the word, every time I go on holiday via plane, eat produce from Africa, eat meat rather than veg etc... Life is not supposed to be sterile. For it to be so would only make life worthless and that would be much more of a waste.

    Unlike all of those selfish things I do it would be foolish to live in hope my cheesecake will cure cancer or solve world hunger, I can always hope little WandA can and therefore validate my selfishness!

    On the whole you are already engaging in so much selfless behaviour in order to give this potential little 'un the best start, don't get hung up on the small unavoidable selfishness that we must endure to actually enjoy life.

    Can't you tell I'm a philosopher, I like this piece called 'Moral Saints' by Susan Wolf. I think it puts the idea of 'good/right' in context, life is much more than a selection of moral choices.

    (Moral Saints 'dropped' as PDF http://drop.io/WolfMoralSaints if you're interested)

    1284593153
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    *bringing...

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    toxycat [sign in to see picture]
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    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    Also - to add - though I'm sure it won't help you at all TC - but annoyingly there is a postcode lottery. Luckily for me, I've only ever had fantastic doctors (barr one or two) especially at consultant level so I do know good care exists, it's just a massive shame that not everyone has access to it! :/

    Adx

    Yep it is annoying.........and no woman should have to go through that....pregnancy is amazing but it was just so damn traumatic for me ..........................it was my second time round but there was alot of first time mothers in that ward at the same time......they had no help at all.........understaffed and over subscribed.......appalling......really gone down hill since my first time!!

    Wow u have some huge decisions to make.....please dont let my experience put you off (i apologise for the gory details...lol)...my first one was fine because i given more chance to recover after sugery...ie 5 days in hospital........not shoved out after 1 night.

    1284666917
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    toxycat wrote:

    Wow u have some huge decisions to make.....please dont let my experience put you off (i apologise for the gory details...lol)...my first one was fine because i given more chance to recover after sugery...ie 5 days in hospital........not shoved out after 1 night.

    That's ok lovely - with something as individual as child birth I'm well aware that different people have different experiences and which ever way I go, the best thing I can do is make a well informed decision and plan as much as I can to make the whole thing as smooth as can be expected with child birth!

    Still, a way to go yet, maybe they'll have invented a magic baby birthing machine by the time I have kids :P

    Adx

    1284954784
    Rowan [sign in to see picture]
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    I admit I'm nervous about the prospect of childbirth (assuming I can have them). For me It's be a trade off even between home/ hospital birth as I have some medical problems but stress is a seizure trigger so unfamiliar everything isn't great. I suspect that after it started I wouldn't care about much but getting it over with. My own mum had 4 kids, didn't tear with any of us, had really straightforward births, all vaginal, gas and air, I took 21 hours and the last 1 hour! However she also lost 4 babies and was admitted every time with horrendous morning sickness. Ideally I'd avoid the dreadful morning sickness, not miscarry and avoid tearing or epesiotomies. Realistically I wouldn't dare to make cast iron plans. My aunt had 2 cesareans and 22 years ago had a baby emergency c-section 2 months ish early (a little more I think and medicine wasn't as advanced).

    Because there are medical problems that are hereditary it has posed an ethical dilemma for me, however the docs disagree on the stats for this and it's now apparently unlikely to be passed on since th OH has no history of similar disease in his family. Hopefully they just end up with and extremely strong immune system, I've come off all the risky meds, Sodium Valproate is notorious and at one point I was on 2000mg per day. Wouldn't have dreamed of them on that! However if we have any difficulty conceiving we've decided to adopt rather than undergo any treatment. All children have equal value regardless of genetics, although we wouldn't stand in the way of tracing their birth parents if they wished to at a reasonable age. I ramble.

    Yes to a degree it's selfish but we're witnessing the consequences of following the baby boom with decent contraception and legalisation of abortion, and discouraging having children. Not debating the ethics of that in any way! Just that while the global population is rising, Britain's population growth is currently dependent on immigration and we are going to face serious problems metting the cost of care for the elderly with people living longer. As such unless we bring in Euthanasia on a notable scale I can see the practical value of having children to at least maintain a stable population. This may well come across wrongly, it's not meant to be harsh at all, and my mind isn't brilliant right now!

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