• thin line between love and hate?

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    I have been pondering the nature of so called "passionate" relationships on and off for years after observing the relationships of others. I have noticed that people often use words like "passionate" and "firey" to describe relationships that I would describe as as aggressive: shouting, swearing, insulting, throwing things at each other etc!

    I couldn't have less understanding of how and why relationships like this exist! My partner is the most important person in the the world to me and therefore the very last person who I would want to see hurt, physically or emotionally. I have occasionally thought and/or said "you wally" or something equally mild and we've had some vaguely heated discussions about physics (don't ask) but it's never, ever approached anything nasty. It's not that I'm biting my tongue and seething in silence either: I genuinely don't have angry or mean thoughts about DD. On the rare occasions where he's hurt my feelings (almost always through clumsiness not intention) or the times when I've felt insecure or upset: I just tell him what's on my mind and we work it out.

    We are a team, we tackle problems together by talking things through, making decisions and taking the appropriate actions to keep us loved-up, healthy and happy. People might think such a reasonable, respectful relationship is lacking in passion but I totally disagree. DD and I have an incredibly passionate relationship: I love (and lust after!) him so intensely and would do anything for him, his happiness is more important to me than my own. I think passion comes from the strength of the bond between us, we have incredibly passionate sex without needing to have a massive fight first!

    I have given this some thought and have come to the conclusion that I don't really believe there is a thin line between love and hate at all!

    I started this thread because I'm interested to know other people's thoughts and experiences on the idea of passion vs aggression. What does passion mean to you? What is your relationship like? If you're in a dramatic/shouty-type relationship - do you like it and why, what at am I missing?

    xxKPxx

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    telemachus [sign in to see picture]
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    I agree with you and this is something that I have considered on occasion - that a lot of people say that their relationship is passionate, but in reality it is aggressive. And sometimes, possibly abusive.

    I suppose that to a certain degree, if it just the two of you and you are both highly charged people, then there is no harm. But I don't think that these relationships are beneficial when you have children as you are teaching them that such relationships are "normal". And I wouldn't want my children to grow up expecting to be in relationship where someone might throw a plate at them or kick them out onto the doorstep all night in the name of passion.

    I suspect that a lot of people in relationships like this could do with some anger counselling.

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    sweetlove666 [sign in to see picture]
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    telemachus wrote:

    I agree with you and this is something that I have considered on occasion - that a lot of people say that their relationship is passionate, but in reality it is aggressive. And sometimes, possibly abusive.

    i agree with this, sometimes when im out and about i see couples going tooth and nail at each other over something as stupid as shampoo ( yes, really!) and you wonder "why the hell are you together"

    coming form the background i have i realy crave and need stability in a relationship. if theres a problem id rather get it sorted and over and done with before it becomes a major issue.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    I completely agree KP!

    I think we've discussed this while chatting, I just can't do real anger at someone I love. Frustration, annoyance and being upset yes but not shouting and screaming at each other.

    I think for me respect is a big issue, I don't shout in part because I respect people more than that. No one deserves to be forced to submit to you through sheer noise and emotion.

    I don't do mean thoughts or spite but I do distance. If I'm annoyed or upset I switch off, I don't argue or shout I ignore and become uber-rational and robot like! It can annoy Ad at times but it's how I judge a situation and then I discuss it when I'm feeling less annoyed or frustrated because I know they can get in the way of a rational solution. Ad thinks I get my way too much because I'll only let us discuss it in this way, however it's my opinion that is the right way and heated argument serves no purpose. *shrugs*

    After all this I will agree that shouting and screaming at people isn't passion in my opinion, passion to me is a desire to behave a certain way so that your head is over ruled by your heart. Passion is when I see Ad and feel primal stirrings! As I explained above I can't do shouty and ranty so I guess passion can be that way for other people but I wouldn't describe it as a constructive passion, passion can be amazing if channelled correctly, you surrender to the moment and give in to such strong desires... Although it's not always good, see crimes 'of passion'.

    I don't think hate shout ever come in to a relationship (well, apart from those really annoying habits all OHs have!). I accept passion can take different forms for different people, hate cannot. Hate is always negative and if you experience it towards a partner something is wrong.

    This post is a bit all over the place so apologies.

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm glad it's not just me that is left baffled by the appeal of all the upset and drama of these relationships!

    I definately agree on the point you made about children. It's one thing to be living in emotional turmoil when it's just the two of you but quite another when you bring littleuns into it. Children need stability and love and I don't think it can be good for them to be raised to associate verbal and phsysical abusiveness with love.

    Some people seem to belive that the more you shout and the more of a fuss/drama you make the more you care. I don't know where or how that idea got started but personally I think it's total madness!

    xxKPxx

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    shellyboo [sign in to see picture]
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    I've been in both kinds - the tearful, drama-filled, shouty, fighty relationship and the calm, respectful kind. I know which one I prefer! My current partner and I have the same sort of relationship that you've described, KP. We don't fight, ever... the one time he's genuinely upset me/hurt my feelings it was an accidental mix up and he was more upset than I was over it because he'd upset me!

    Having experienced this sort of relationship, where it's based on mutual respect, and the thing you want the most is for your partner to be happy... I couldn't go back to the other sort. I couldn't be with someone who makes me cry anymore. And hopefully I'll never have to!

    As for passion, the sex is the best I've ever had. I don't think drama necessarily makes for better sex!

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    sweetlove666 wrote:

    telemachus wrote:

    I agree with you and this is something that I have considered on occasion - that a lot of people say that their relationship is passionate, but in reality it is aggressive. And sometimes, possibly abusive.

    i agree with this, sometimes when im out and about i see couples going tooth and nail at each other over something as stupid as shampoo ( yes, really!) and you wonder "why the hell are you together"

    I always wonder is that for the best? At least 2 explosive personalities can hold their own and that's better than one partner being continually being ground down...

    Either way I do think anger management would benefit these numpties, everything seems to be a battle for them. If they win which shampoo to get the other then argues they should choose the conditioner! Not healthy to see your partner as an enemy to your goals and desires.

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    GHxx [sign in to see picture]
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    I completely agree KP, I can understand hate being linked to bein hurt by a loved one as the love you had was deep before the pain, i.e. cheating

    But within a relationship, to me if you want to be with somebody, love them i cant imagine even an ounce or thought of hate coming into it, i know a lot of people who strive on heated arguements and the make-up after but to me i find it unnecessary to keep passion in a relationship, to me it should be there through love.

    xGHx

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    shellyboo wrote:

    I've been in both kinds - the tearful, drama-filled, shouty, fighty relationship and the calm, respectful kind. I know which one I prefer! My current partner and I have the same sort of relationship that you've described, KP. We don't fight, ever... the one time he's genuinely upset me/hurt my feelings it was an accidental mix up and he was more upset than I was over it because he'd upset me!

    Having experienced this sort of relationship, where it's based on mutual respect, and the thing you want the most is for your partner to be happy... I couldn't go back to the other sort. I couldn't be with someone who makes me cry anymore. And hopefully I'll never have to!

    As for passion, the sex is the best I've ever had. I don't think drama necessarily makes for better sex!

    I think you made some great distinctions here, passion isn't 'drama'. You also picked up on the mutual respect that seems to be lacking for many people.

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I completely agree KP!

    I think we've discussed this while chatting, I just can't do real anger at someone I love. Frustration, annoyance and being upset yes but not shouting and screaming at each other.

    I think for me respect is a big issue, I don't shout in part because I respect people more than that. No one deserves to be forced to submit to you through sheer noise and emotion.

    I don't do mean thoughts or spite but I do distance. If I'm annoyed or upset I switch off, I don't argue or shout I ignore and become uber-rational and robot like! It can annoy Ad at times but it's how I judge a situation and then I discuss it when I'm feeling less annoyed or frustrated because I know they can get in the way of a rational solution. Ad thinks I get my way too much because I'll only let us discuss it in this way, however it's my opinion that is the right way and heated argument serves no purpose. *shrugs*

    After all this I will agree that shouting and screaming at people isn't passion in my opinion, passion to me is a desire to behave a certain way so that your head is over ruled by your heart. Passion is when I see Ad and feel primal stirrings! As I explained above I can't do shouty and ranty so I guess passion can be that way for other people but I wouldn't describe it as a constructive passion, passion can be amazing if channelled correctly, you surrender to the moment and give in to such strong desires... Although it's not always good, see crimes 'of passion'.

    I don't think hate shout ever come in to a relationship (well, apart from those really annoying habits all OHs have!). I accept passion can take different forms for different people, hate cannot. Hate is always negative and if you experience it towards a partner something is wrong.

    This post is a bit all over the place so apologies.

    It was discussing it with you the other day that finally got me around to making a post about it!

    DD and I both do the distance thing if upset or frustrated. I think it's a good way to think through what's happened, put it in perspective, work out what started it and how you really feel about it.

    If I just started yelling or even trying to talk straight away it wouldn't be helpful because quite often I either don't know why I'm upset or it's nothing to do with DD - I'm often just over tired or upset about something else. I find it quite hard to understand my feelings while I'm feeling them - it's only after they've passed or lessened that I can think about them clearly enough to explain. A bit of distance allows me to relax and articulate myself constructively. Also, if I'm upset enough I can become physically incapable of speech, so sometimes I couldn't discuss something even if I wanted to!

    xxKPxx

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    GHxx wrote:

    I completely agree KP, I can understand hate being linked to bein hurt by a loved one as the love you had was deep before the pain, i.e. cheating

    But within a relationship, to me if you want to be with somebody, love them i cant imagine even an ounce or thought of hate coming into it, i know a lot of people who strive on heated arguements and the make-up after but to me i find it unnecessary to keep passion in a relationship, to me it should be there through love.

    xGHx

    I have been cheated on and I still didn't feel hate...just hurt! I am absolutely convinced that WandA is right and that hate is a purely negative emotion, I just don't think it's connected to love at all.

    xxKPxx

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    KittyPurry wrote:

    It was discussing it with you the other day that finally got me around to making a post about it!

    DD and I both do the distance thing if upset or frustrated. I think it's a good way to think through what's happened, put it in perspective, work out what started it and how you really feel about it.

    If I just started yelling or even trying to talk straight away it wouldn't be helpful because quite often I either don't know why I'm upset or it's nothing to do with DD - I'm often just over tired or upset about something else. I find it quite hard to understand my feelings while I'm feeling them - it's only after they've passed or lessened that I can think about them clearly enough to explain. A bit of distance allows me to relax and articulate myself constructively. Also, if I'm upset enough I can become physically incapable of speech, so sometimes I couldn't discuss something even if I wanted to!

    xxKPxx

    Wow, I'm inspiring!

    It also puts things very much in perspective. There are times you look back and think 'Was I really upset about that?'.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    KittyPurry wrote:

    GHxx wrote:

    I completely agree KP, I can understand hate being linked to bein hurt by a loved one as the love you had was deep before the pain, i.e. cheating

    But within a relationship, to me if you want to be with somebody, love them i cant imagine even an ounce or thought of hate coming into it, i know a lot of people who strive on heated arguements and the make-up after but to me i find it unnecessary to keep passion in a relationship, to me it should be there through love.

    xGHx

    I have been cheated on and I still didn't feel hate...just hurt! I am absolutely convinced that WandA is right and that hate is a purely negative emotion, I just don't think it's connected to love at all.

    xxKPxx

    She did say hate being linked, it might be negative but I can understand some people feel hate for the action or situation. I don't think it has any place at the person though. You could still love someone but be really resentful of what has happened for what ever reason.

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    sweetlove666 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I always wonder is that for the best? At least 2 explosive personalities can hold their own and that's better than one partner being continually being ground down...

    Either way I do think anger management would benefit these numpties, everything seems to be a battle for them. If they win which shampoo to get the other then argues they should choose the conditioner! Not healthy to see your partner as an enemy to your goals and desires.

    my parents have a " heated" relationship. but its been so long now that my dad is so ground down he wil not stand up for other people or himself if my mother is wrong on a factual basis!. I have vivid memories of them arguing over who didnt fill the squash jug up last.

    its all about control for them i think. who gets the easier ride in life and can play the " i do more than you i suffer more for this relationship" sympathy card.

    thing is i dont think most couples like that really understand that theyre relationship isnt healthy or that theyre playing the mind games and the power trips. at the end of the day you cant really help those who dont want to be helped, and it applies a lot in cases like this.

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    Starlight* [sign in to see picture]
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    After reading your beautifully worded post KP, I do have to say I completely 100% agree with you. I could never dream of being nasty to my lovely OH, and he seriously does not have a nasty bone in my body. He is the most important person in the world to me, and being in a 'fiery' relationship does not appeal to me at all.xx

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    I have often wondered how a "firey" relationship copes when something really bad like cheating happens - if you're screaming about who put the bins out, who's turn it is to do the washing up etc. how the hell do you deal with really serious upsets? ... I can only imagine this is when "crimes of passion" end up happening, if shouting is the norm for minor offences then violence would (in a twisted kind of way) make sense as a response!

    xxKPxx

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    Starlight* [sign in to see picture]
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    Perhaps for people in a fiery relationship, the make up sex is SO worth it? xx

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    I agree with you too KP! Passion isn't anger or hatred. Passion is love and lust and desire.

    My mum recently said to me that she worries that I feel like I'm treading on egg shells with WandA because he rarely loses his temper. In 5 years he's only shouted at me once! And my thought was - but I don't want to argue with WandA! Yes things get heated occasionally, but it is far more respectful to say "actually, this hurt my feelings or makes me angry" than screaming and shouting at one another.

    I am an argumentative person and I do lose my temper easily, but with WandA - I want to try and not get angry at him because I know he'd never deliberately hurt me so I should be respectful to him as he is with me! He deserves my respect.

    He's made me better with my parents too - we argue less because I am calmer and if I feel they've done something that makes me feel mad I can put it into calm words and discuss it rather than arguing about it.

    It's a better way to be because it causes less rollercoaster emotions and more mutual love and respect.

    The only thing I will disagree on - because of the way I am, and I mean this solely for my relationship - is that leaving things and discussing them when calmer is better. In many cases - yes it is better. But I have a rubbish memory, like really rubbish, when I'm happy I'm "the happiest I've ever been" and when I'm sad the saddest because I just find it hard to remember previous happiness and sadness. So if WandA does something to upset me, and I don't talk about it whilst I'm upset about it, I'll forget by the time I'm calm and things won't change (if it's something changeable). It does mean, now I have to recognise I'm going to get upset before I get really upset and address it as calmly as I can because other wise - when I get really upset he goes into his shell and I get too pestery. But I'm learning how to recognise things better.

    Of course he'd never deliberately upset me and we argue very rarely because we've both learnt when an argument may be beginning so we'll calmy discuss it before it gets to that stage or have a little space from each other...people might say "ah but you can't love or care about each other if you never argue"...my belief is we clearly care so much about each other that we will make sure we don't upset each other by allowing arguments to get too far.

    In my family, I always felt I caused everyone a lot of grief because we always argued and it must have been my fault, it was a big contributor to my self harming. No I realise that disagreements don't have to be resolved by shouting and someone who respects me will not use shouting as a way to shut me up.

    Adx

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    I agree with you too KP! Passion isn't anger or hatred. Passion is love and lust and desire.

    My mum recently said to me that she worries that I feel like I'm treading on egg shells with WandA because he rarely loses his temper. In 5 years he's only shouted at me once! And my thought was - but I don't want to argue with WandA! Yes things get heated occasionally, but it is far more respectful to say "actually, this hurt my feelings or makes me angry" than screaming and shouting at one another.

    I am an argumentative person and I do lose my temper easily, but with WandA - I want to try and not get angry at him because I know he'd never deliberately hurt me so I should be respectful to him as he is with me! He deserves my respect.

    He's made me better with my parents too - we argue less because I am calmer and if I feel they've done something that makes me feel mad I can put it into calm words and discuss it rather than arguing about it.

    It's a better way to be because it causes less rollercoaster emotions and more mutual love and respect.

    The only thing I will disagree on - because of the way I am, and I mean this solely for my relationship - is that leaving things and discussing them when calmer is better. In many cases - yes it is better. But I have a rubbish memory, like really rubbish, when I'm happy I'm "the happiest I've ever been" and when I'm sad the saddest because I just find it hard to remember previous happiness and sadness. So if WandA does something to upset me, and I don't talk about it whilst I'm upset about it, I'll forget by the time I'm calm and things won't change (if it's something changeable). It does mean, now I have to recognise I'm going to get upset before I get really upset and address it as calmly as I can because other wise - when I get really upset he goes into his shell and I get too pestery. But I'm learning how to recognise things better.

    Of course he'd never deliberately upset me and we argue very rarely because we've both learnt when an argument may be beginning so we'll calmy discuss it before it gets to that stage or have a little space from each other...people might say "ah but you can't love or care about each other if you never argue"...my belief is we clearly care so much about each other that we will make sure we don't upset each other by allowing arguments to get too far.

    In my family, I always felt I caused everyone a lot of grief because we always argued and it must have been my fault, it was a big contributor to my self harming. No I realise that disagreements don't have to be resolved by shouting and someone who respects me will not use shouting as a way to shut me up.

    Adx

    I must say I was quite miffed by your mums response to us not arguing, especially when she knows that how arguments are dealt with in yours is so unhealthy at times!

    The think for me is if you forget what was bad it means it wasn't actually that bad. of course some things are important beyond that time but most disagreements are niggles in my opinion.

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I must say I was quite miffed by your mums response to us not arguing, especially when she knows that how arguments are dealt with in yours is so unhealthy at times!

    The think for me is if you forget what was bad it means it wasn't actually that bad. of course some things are important beyond that time but most disagreements are niggles in my opinion.

    But you know I forget things that are really important to me so you can't be sure that it wasn't actually that bad!

    My mum is odd - ignore her :P she hates the way our family argues yet isn't proud of me breaking the cycle!

    Adx

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