• Religion and Sex

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Aren't there 3 topics we shouldn't discuss at dinner parties? Religion, politics and sex (I may of made up the three).

    Seeing as its election time and there has been bits of politics everywhere, even on here and sex is obviously certainly here I thought I might as well bring religion into the arena. If it hasn't already in some of the 'Sex in the news' posts.

    Being an atheist I have a weird fascination with religion, it makes very little sense to me but it is such a strong motivational force for many out there I'm curious as to others take on issues of sex and religion.

    This isn't a post for flaming or derision (I reserved that for those who deny evolution and equal right on other sites) just maybe a post to give your own opinion on sex and how it fits into your religion or lack of.

    One aspect of religion that annoys/confuses me is the selective approach taken by many. Lets denounce gays (If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. 20:13) and subjugation of women (In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. ... Thy husband ... shall rule over thee. 3:16)* with justification from a book while they eat bacon and work on Sundays (or Saturdays etc.... I'm sure I'm not the first to point out that many religious texts would fail to meet even the basics of our modern laws, the HRA or even most peoples idea of common decency.

    How do some people ignore the rules they do like and find a place for their sexuality and practices within a religion without going to the 'bad' afterlife? I have also purposely ignored 'cultural' rules such as the wearing of the hajab/burka or enforced celibacy in some Christian sects and focused on 'original texts'.

    So how does sex for actual enjoyment fit in to all this religion malarkey? Is it a gift, foes it bring you closer to God/nature etc... or is it just a great to be a liberated hedonist and free from the shackles of moral and social judgement.

    Discuss. If you want like...

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    *Some quotes from the Quran, just to avoid accusations of bias

    Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan 4:98

    Assemble those who did wrong, together with their wives and what they used to worship. 37:22 (Terribly sporting of Allah to punish wives for being married to 'sinners'.)

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Ooooo.... Here was also an article that got me thinking about such issues for posting in the first place.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-asghar/bristol-palin-and-the-tro_b_510658.html

    This thread isn't just about Christianity either, it would be interesting to hear from pagans for instance but I know I'm most familiar with Christianity so that's why I referenced that more (before anyone complains about persecution to the Telegraph).

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    Ecksvie [sign in to see picture]
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    I'd be very interested to know how sex would be today if no religion had ever existed.

    I'm generally against religion. I'm not an atheist but I'm not religious either. I just think there's....something. I dont know what. Not necessarily even a god, maybe just souls.

    I generally find religion to be quite controlling and I don't like it because it goes against logic. Sometimes I wonder if the times all of these holy books were written in, these rules were written to control people and make them not do things which back then would have been a problem. For example, sex outside of marriage. These days we have condoms and all sorts of contraception, but back then if you had sex you got pregnant and it would have been a problem for the people involved.

    Just a theory. I'm not saying religion is an entirely bad thing, but some people turn it into a monster.

    I much prefer people use logic and reasoning to come to the best decision, rather than rely on some book written thousands of years ago which doesn't have all the facts and tells you what to do.

    Coincidentally, there are a hell of alot of laws in the holy books which have been dropped. They'd be considered barbaric in this day and age, and yet there are other laws which have been kept. Hypocrisy. The problem with religion is now what it was hundreds of years ago. Hundreds of years ago people couldn't read so they had to be told what the bible (or whatever other book) told them to do. These days people CAN read, but they still rely on other sources to tell them what their religion says, rather than reading and coming to their own conclusions. I'm aware this may be a generalisation and there are those who do read their holy books, but this is generally the case in my experience.

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Ecksvie wrote:

    I much prefer people use logic and reasoning to come to the best decision,

    I like you even more now Ecks

    As an atheist, skeptic, rationalist, scientist (amongst other things) I believe sex is about pleasure and connections (not necessarily both together). It is important for cementing a bond between two people and also important for health and wellbeing if gone about in the right way (a happy person, is a healthy person - ok not always, but it helps!).

    Because of my godlessness I suppose there is nothing other than laws and my own morality stopping me doing anything I felt like doing and I find that liberating - I feel guilty easily so adding another authority to "upset" just doesn't sit well with me! I like only having to answer to myself (and my partner) (since I never get the urge to break the law I can kind of rule that out - I can thank my upbringing for a good sense of "right" and "wrong").

    I go on the theory that everything is good as long as it is safe, you enjoy it, and it doesn't harm/upset/offend anyone it directly (and indirectly - my specification here is really only because some people get offended by things that are safe, enjoyable and harmless and none of there business so they don't count :P) involves.

    When relating my personal experiences of religion to sex I can say it doesn't sit well for me. I can imagine to others it is workable, but as a child brought up in a Christian school - being told "God is always watching you" can have a major effect! I still have issues with sleeping naked *and* uncovered and still worry about "hidden cameras" in new places - particularly other people's houses - including my Nana's! So yes I have an issue with religion in terms of sex. Of course some people won't feel this way and if they choose religion and it doesn't effect their sex life then that's fab. However it saddens me to see many (not all) people letting their lives (and sex lives) be effected detrimentally when we only get one shot at enjoying life!

    I could go on - but this is turning into quite an essay

    As always - if anything in this post offends or upsets please ask me to clarify as I can assure everyone that my intentions are not to offend or upset.

    Ax

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    KittyPurry [sign in to see picture]
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    I am a christian and a scientist and a raging sex-maniac and a lesbian/bisexual ....sounds like quite contradictory mix!

    I believe for many reasons (that I wont bore you with the details of), not because I was brought up to, but basically I went through a horrific time period and I honestly believe that without the strength that came through faith I wouldn't be here today. I've been given all the proof I need for me

    I'm not sure I believe in the litteral truth of the old testament...I believe in evolution for example. I think the statements like no gay sex, promiscuity etc. are all parts of stories that represented the best wisdom at the time. As Ecksvie says there would've been no contraception so my immediate thought is that there'd have been no protection against STDs. The population of the world was also much smaller back then so to boost the population it vaguely makes sense to avoid homosexuality.

    One of my more traditional christian friends used to be quite judgemental about my having sex before marriage. I pointed out that as far and DD and I are concerned we are married it's just in our hearts rather than on paper. Marriage in the legal document and ceremony sense is a new thing...DD and I live as man and wife and think of ourselves that way so I figure we're as married as we need to be!

    My faith enriches my life and doesn't in anyway prevent me from doing things I would otherwise want to do. I naturally want to help others etc. so I don't find it interferes. I am a sexual creature and I don't see that as detrimental to my christianity because I figure I'm this way for a reason and as long as I don't hurt anyone I think it's fine!

    I don't have all the answers, I screw up often and there's plenty from the bible I can't explain but underneath it all I just sort of "know" (I'm well aware how annoying that is to non-believers especially scientists but I'm crap at explaining how I feel)

    xxKPxx

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    Artel [sign in to see picture]
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    I would not describe myself as Athiest, Agnostic nor a peron of faith. I firmly believe that humans are simply the most intellient relatives of the apes.

    The morals and values which we are raised to hold true or develop later in life are entirely cultural. You would be raised within whatever faith your parents held. Nurture over nature. Religions have evolved and changed over time and I would expect them do continue to do so for ever more, but the values within each religion are the moral guidelines passed on from one generation to the next.

    The current set of Christian values is based on a 400 year old version of 2000 year old events. The Koran and Torah dating back even further.

    Given the great power held by the Roman Empire (where bisexuality and homosexuality, while possibly not the norm, were certainly not regarded as "wrong" or something to be hidden) around 2000 years ago, it is perhaps not a surprise that The Bible and Christianity frown upon or condemn the behaviour of their oppressors. Personally, I think people are simply sexual. There is no need for the Hetero-Homo-Bi prefix. I believe we are all inherently Bi with varying strengths of prefference for one gender or the other.

    The entire scope of human knowledge has moved on so dramatically since then that it does worry me slightly that sex and sexuality among many other things today can be so heavily influenced by such old knowledge.

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    Complete shambles of a post, but I know what I mean. lol

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    sweetlove666 [sign in to see picture]
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    i guess i am a pagan

    I belive in the power of nature and the golden rule. I do not believe there is a creator or a kind of god, theres spirits and power in nature and in every human. and that you should just be kind to all and try not to harm anything.

    as i interpret it Paganism is not a strict religion as such as theres no real rules and sacraments.

    sex wise i dont think it really affects me personally. theres nothing thats condemmed or that a person should feel guilty about and nothing thats forbidden. The golden rule and the thought that you shouldnt harm people to me means i will never intentionally hurt someones feelings.

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    diamonds [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    Well said SL, "and it harm none, do as ye will" is a rule that I tend to follow as closely as I can in life. It's very difficult and intention is hard to sort out but I would never purposefully hurt someone.

    After all, whatever you give out also comes back times three...


    see i belive in this as well the whole it comes back 3 times as bad

    and i think i do all i can to be a nice person and not hurt anyone ect ect yet bad things still have happend to me and makes me you wander what did i do for me to get treated/hurt like that if you belive in it coming back 3 thing, if you get why im trying to say? lol

    Dxx

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    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    The only law I believe in is 'Tucker's Law'

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    Sam66 [sign in to see picture]
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    I expect I'm going to surprise every single one of you now ...

    I used to be a priest ... no really.

    Religion and sex is a heady mix but I must admit it (religion) never prevented me from enjoying sex in all it's heterosexual forms ...

    I think many people (religious and non religious alike) make the mistake of taking the bible literally and / or selectively. That's fine, in a way, as long as one is honest about it. After all all of us tend to take only the bits from anythng we actually like and approve of.

    These days, with no faith left due to all I've seen and experienced (VERY long story there ...) I tend to agree with those who say that as long as it is consensual, joyful and loving then go for it.

    These days (with the benefit of age I guess!) I tend not to think of sex as purely recreational, but I have no problems with those who do!!!

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    Sam66 [sign in to see picture]
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    PS I found this on another (music) forum. Makes good points but makes the points with humour. Good stuff!!

    On her radio show in America, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.. It's funny, as well as informative:


    Dear Dr. Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.


    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9.. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?


    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?


    7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?


    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16.) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


    I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help..

    Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your adoring fan.

    James M. Kauffman, Ed.D.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    The only law I believe in is 'Tucker's Law'

    Me no get....

    Sam66 wrote:

    PS I found this on another (music) forum. Makes good points but makes the points with humour. Good stuff!!

    On her radio show in America, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.. It's funny, as well as informative:


    Dear Dr. Laura:.........

    I thought that was mild genius Sam! I might try and work out how many religious laws I've broken today accidentally...

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    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Tigerlilies wrote:

    The only law I believe in is 'Tucker's Law'

    Me no get...

    I was going to link but it's too sweary. Type it into youtube. x

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Hella Rouge (LH) wrote:

    This is outstanding! Bravo that chap :)

    I also have a question...why is it OK to eat a chicken omlette when it's not OK to boil a kidd in its mother's milk? (Exodus).

    Maybe those ancient desert tribes just happened to have really refined tastes (I know omelettes are stretching it a bit but its French so must be posh)... I think on the next page you get a mention of only eating pasta 'el dente' and making sure your salmon is smoked not tinned under penalty of death.

    The Bible takes food very seriously, just look at how it ends with a big feast and God goes mental when you eat one of his apple.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    Tigerlilies wrote:

    The only law I believe in is 'Tucker's Law'

    Me no get...

    I was going to link but it's too sweary. Type it into youtube. x

    and I thought you were more lady like for such filth!

    Tut tut TL!

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    masterandslave [sign in to see picture]
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    Sam66 that's a great find, although scary to think that some people out there might take it too literally along those lines.

    I remember watching a documentary on channel 4 about christians in the us protesting about homosexuals. There was this one man who took his 6 or 7 year old son along with him everywhere he went to protest (mainly known gay areas) and all he did was shut and scream at these men, some of whom would almost pick a fight with him. The thing which got to me the most, wasn't his ways of thinking (as rude as they were) but the fact that he did this all in front of his young son and it was clearly really upsetting him to see his dad in these situations. He needed to take a step back from what he was trying to do and to look at his own life very carefully.

    Several of my friends are born again christians, several have saved themselves for their wedding night and then gone on to have a very kinky sex life from what i hear! Someone asked one of them why she had a hickie, wasn't she a christian? and she just replied yes - i'm a married christian! I thought that was a fantastic response and attitude to have to it.

    Another family i know have been heavily christian all their lives, but once they hit those teenage years they rebel against their father who is a vicar! Another had moved in with her boyfriend but only under the premise that they were sleeping in separate rooms - she's now pregnant and her mother rather than the vicar father, as soon as she found out went to her diary to try and find a date for them to be married before the baby is born! the daughter is very headstrong and if she was going to get married to the father of her child she would've done it already!

    I was christened and i do call myself a christian very loosely, i do think that once you pass away there is something, but what i'm not sure. i live with my other half unmarried, but i do consider him to be my husband in a sense. i cannot bear to think of parting from him and he is the only man i've ever slept with, he is my soulmate. i couldn't agree more with other peoples comments about karma and to treat others how you would like to be treated, if only everyone was like that the world would be a better place. Argh! I'm beginning to sound like a contestant in a miss world competition!!!

    x

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    You see, I like the idea of Karma, but I also like the idea of just being nice with no need for a "reward" - or a "punishment" if you aren't nice.

    I don't believe in Karma, but I think being nice can pay dividends. Not in terms of good things happening to you per se, but in terms of people appreciating your niceness and returning returning it. If I go out of my way to do a person a favour I don't expect anything in return but I find that often, when I need a favour, they'll return it.

    I also believe being positive is what makes life seem to treat you well, rather than God or Karma. Many people who know me would say I am "unlucky" - things haven't always gone my way. But to me? I'm the luckiest girl in the world. I have so many positives to focus on my life and without religion - I believe we only get one life so I do everything I can to make the most of it! Happiness is my number one priority in life (as long as it doesn't affect anyone detrimentally or break any laws) - if I can make others happy along the way then that's fantastic. Anything else is just a bonus!

    I would like to add - this is my personal belief affecting my personal life, there are bad things that happen too and there are varying reasons for that which to go into my beliefs about that would take far too long and be far too off topic so just a disclaimer here to say I do consider those things and I don't blame a God either but I don't want to go into detail.

    Ax

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    Sam66 [sign in to see picture]
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    Masrerandslave ... I suspect the documentary in question was to do wih a VERY odd Baptist Church - the name of which escapes me for the moment. They've been disowned by most other Christians. Was it the one by Louis Theroux?

    My feelings on religion are complex now. I find myself an athiest - though HATING that way of referring to people with no faith. BUt I am very sympathetic (and perhaps a little envious??) of those who can believe. I completely understand why it is so important to so many - I was after all a priest for a long time.

    It's a shame that religion comes across as being somehow 'against' sex - it isn't. It does get a bit hung up about when and with whom, but once you're married then sex is a gift to humanity to be enjoyed fully. (That's what I told the couples I married anyway.) I don't get, and never have done the RC line on contraception - I think they're just wrong. And the underlying philosophy of that teaching I never really understood. And I've got an MA in theology!!

    I don't believe in 'karma' or anything like that - it's just that some people 'fit' together (no laughing ... I didn't mean it like that!).

    I've done such bad things in my life and I guess the greatest "proof" of the truth of religion is they way my wife has forgiven me (she is a very faithful Roman Catholic) for all the hideous things I did. It's just a shame I can no longer make that leap of faith for myself.

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    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Actually, I'll admit to it. I do mix religion and sex when I ask a man to worship me.

    That doesn't count?

    If memory serves me the site of churches and graveyards were always sites for rites of passage in the teenage years. And the only time in my life I will admit to drinking Lambrini.

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    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    LMAO! I have to admit, I remember having some sexual activities outside of a church when I was younger...

    Careful now, I bet there's some lapsed Catholics for whom heretical antics are the ultimate forbidden fantasy.

    Protestants have no sense of guilt, so the fall from grace is less fun

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