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  1. Ever paid for sex?

    1294938250
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    sxe_couple21 wrote:

    Human rights breaches like the ones you cite don't occur in the UK, unfortunately sex trafficking does that would be one point of difference. The second being one effectively involves rape, widely regarded as one of the most horrendous crimes in existence.

    I think you're losing sight of the wider picture on nearly all points (except banking), if you focus on the negatives of anything then you're always going to come to the conclusion, that they're sleazy/unfair/negative/underhand (this even extends to the drug trade) for instance remove the trade be it fair/unfair and see where that leaves you?

    Consider that as set out above; many people willingly escort, in the majority of cases this does not take place in alleyways etc.

    Why is what porn shows in any shape or form sleazy anyhow? I'm sure there are practices in which you endulge to which others would take exception and apply a lavel(certainly there is in my case), its down to the individual to decide. You can't have a rule that states, mainstream loving sex is ok and fine but anything that involves CIF or similar isn't as your passing judgement on acceptability based on your own boundaries.

    Errr, no. You are missing my point entirely.

    I am widening the point to the wider picture. The definition of freedom goes something along the lines of this:
    "The condition of being free; the power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints".
    Both the tea picker and trafficked are not free, neither can behave how they wish because there are outside circumstances preventing them from living how they wish (this if course affects everyone to some extent) free from restraint. The difference is that for the trafficked women there is no choice, for the tea picker there is a pseudo- choice, the tea picker has the whole world in which to be free, only he/she doesn't because they lack the money, education, luck etc... Both cases do not share the rights they are entitled to because of circumstances beyond their control. National borders should be of little concern when it comes to dignity and respect for our fellow people. I do not say everything is the same, it is the main philosophical points as above which are the same.

    My point on focussing in on the negatives is that they don't need to be there. It is because we deny the freedom to those involved in the sex industry that it becomes a problem and is driven underground. Regulation and openness allows the industry to be regulated according to mainstream ideals, such as freedom and respect. Like the banking case I do not judge the sex industry in theory based on it's current poor take on practice.

    I believe it is sleazy, because, once again people are denied freedom. It is not about what I think or feel. There are some porn stars who love what they do. Others who don't, and others who feel the need to do things they really don't want to to get paid. It is not my boundaries that concern me, it is the limits of those who feel forced to violate themselves or put themselves as risk (for example most studios rejecting the use of condoms) because they it's their job. I'd call an unofficial ban on safe sex quite sleazy myself because I expect the 'stars want to remain healthy, therefore their freedom is violated through being the victim of circumstance.

    1294940637
    Phantasma [sign in to see picture]
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    In some respects we are still dealing with the victorian morality of two centuries ago. The whole issue about paying for sex and the accompanying guilt, secrecy, risk of harm etc etc is because the industry is almost completely underground - so safeguards and so forth are a matter of personal discretion.

    There would of course be a tremendous moral outcry if prostitution was legalised, which is why it is unlikely to happen any time soon - no government would dare. But the effects would likely be extremely liberating - if not for us then for the next generation and the generation after that. Being able to control the industry, impose regulations etc would help as well.

    Obviously that would only solve the issue here in the UK - to deal with th trade around the world would be practically impossible I fear - but at least it would be some improvement on the current situation.

    1294941149
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Phantasma wrote:

    Obviously that would only solve the issue here in the UK - to deal with th trade around the world would be practically impossible I fear - but at least it would be some improvement on the current situation.

    What would be interesting would be the knock on effects though.

    Would legalisation = less trafficking because it was regulated and it be more 'professional'. Or make it worse, but rather legal, would people from poorer nations (such as Poland, Romania) come here legally but be 'forced' to take up prostitution through circumstance, not forced through violence but having no other choice?

    1294941310
    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Phantasma wrote:

    Obviously that would only solve the issue here in the UK - to deal with th trade around the world would be practically impossible I fear - but at least it would be some improvement on the current situation.

    What would be interesting would be the knock on effects though.

    Would legalisation = less trafficking because it was regulated and it be more 'professional'. Or make it worse, but rather legal, would people from poorer nations (such as Poland, Romania) come here legally but be 'forced' to take up prostitution through circumstance, not forced through violence but having no other choice?

    I think legalisation would make conditions better. Not necessarilly mean people wouldnt be trafficked or that there would be less coercion. Just more safety.

    I should really be writing me essay ....not procrastinating reading this!

    1294941824
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Inara14 wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    Phantasma wrote:

    Obviously that would only solve the issue here in the UK - to deal with th trade around the world would be practically impossible I fear - but at least it would be some improvement on the current situation.

    What would be interesting would be the knock on effects though.

    Would legalisation = less trafficking because it was regulated and it be more 'professional'. Or make it worse, but rather legal, would people from poorer nations (such as Poland, Romania) come here legally but be 'forced' to take up prostitution through circumstance, not forced through violence but having no other choice?

    I think legalisation would make conditions better. Not necessarilly mean people wouldnt be trafficked or that there would be less coercion. Just more safety.

    I should really be writing me essay ....not procrastinating reading this!

    If it's on philosophy and trafficking I've given you a lot to write about concerning freedom!

    I do think it would be better on the whole, I just think people need to remember that people can be forced to do something through more than the threat of violence.

    1294942314
    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Inara14 wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    Phantasma wrote:

    Obviously that would only solve the issue here in the UK - to deal with th trade around the world would be practically impossible I fear - but at least it would be some improvement on the current situation.

    What would be interesting would be the knock on effects though.

    Would legalisation = less trafficking because it was regulated and it be more 'professional'. Or make it worse, but rather legal, would people from poorer nations (such as Poland, Romania) come here legally but be 'forced' to take up prostitution through circumstance, not forced through violence but having no other choice?

    I think legalisation would make conditions better. Not necessarilly mean people wouldnt be trafficked or that there would be less coercion. Just more safety.

    I should really be writing me essay ....not procrastinating reading this!

    If it's on philosophy and trafficking I've given you a lot to write about concerning freedom!

    I do think it would be better on the whole, I just think people need to remember that people can be forced to do something through more than the threat of violence.

    Yes, thank you very much! You gave me food for thought! :P

    I think the main problem with people being 'forced' into it is actually coercion/threats to themselves and familly, desperate need for money and/or addiction. Mental threats like many of these can be a lot more harmful than physical violence.

    *slaps self on hand for procrastinating and heads back to write on essay*

    1294943192
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Very important to distinguish between legalisation and decriminalization. The latter is the ideal. You can read a comprehensive account of the differences here http://bayswan.org/defining.html and I've quoted the page:

      Decriminalisation
      Decriminalisation refers to the removal of all criminal laws relating to the operation of the sex industry. The decriminalisation model aims to support occupational health and safety and workplace issues through existing legal and workplace mechanisms.

      Legalisation
      Refers to the use of criminal laws to regulate or control the sex industry by determining the legal conditions under which the sex industry can operate. Legalisation can be highly regulatory or merely define the operation of the various sectors of the sex industry. It can vary between rigid controls under legalised state controlled systems to privatising the sex industry within a legally defined framework. It is often accompanied by strict criminal penalties for sex industry businesses that operate outside the legal framework.

    I also recommend this site to everyone interested in the movement

    http://www.desireealliance.org/

    1294944567
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Regarding Trafficking:

    Lots of bullshit, racism and blurred data here. Unless someone backs up their argument with solid facts, it can be hard to keep a level head.

    What most responses miss is that we need to impose harsher sentences on those doing the trafficking and better passport control.

    A link to decriminalization, which has taken place in New Zealand: Studies done by New Zealand's immigration department have zero cases of trafficking to report since deciminalization was enacted. There was no increase in the number of sex workers either.

    Worse still are the myths surrouding the 'rescue' industry and the racism against immigrants who want to come to the UK and work as sex workers. Trafficking is complicated and both sides tend to oversimplify the issue but we need to distinguish who is being exploited and who is trying to make a living outside the law. I suspect that the latter greatly outnumber the former.

    Most women travelling from poor countries to wealthier ones to work in the sex trade often use the help of criminal syndicates. When they're business is raided they face the choice of admitting what they did as an illegal immigrant and thus face prison or deportation as a criminal OR they can say that they were trafficked in which case they will not be treated as a criminal. This doesn't happen in every case but you see where this is going............

    One of the biggest solutions is to start listening to these migrant women and what they want.

    And for those who really want to do their homework, this is a fabulously well written piece of work http://www.amazon.com/dp/ASIN/1842778609/?tag=lauragus-20

    1294944631
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Very important to distinguish between legalisation and decriminalization. The latter is the ideal. You can read a comprehensive account of the differences here http://bayswan.org/defining.html and I've quoted the page:

      Decriminalisation
      Decriminalisation refers to the removal of all criminal laws relating to the operation of the sex industry. The decriminalisation model aims to support occupational health and safety and workplace issues through existing legal and workplace mechanisms.

      Legalisation
      Refers to the use of criminal laws to regulate or control the sex industry by determining the legal conditions under which the sex industry can operate. Legalisation can be highly regulatory or merely define the operation of the various sectors of the sex industry. It can vary between rigid controls under legalised state controlled systems to privatising the sex industry within a legally defined framework. It is often accompanied by strict criminal penalties for sex industry businesses that operate outside the legal framework.

    I also recommend this site to everyone interested in the movement

    http://www.desireealliance.org/

    1294944645
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Oops, apologies for double posting

    1294944673
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Great point to bring up TL, although I'd still fall in the legalisation camp.

    I don't believe decriminalisation (if I understand it correctly) is an attractive prospect because of the unique issues sex can present (compared to many other businesses, say groceries). I think sex does require a unique set of legal conditions to protect some groups, like children. I know I'd be uncomfortable with a brothel 5mins from a school. I agree with age ratings on films for sexual and violent content because although some things can be introduced to children in the appropriate manner there needs to be a strong element of control if you want children to grow up to be sexually (and err... violently) well adjusted adults.

    It seems much more satisfactory to me to ensure the sex trade is clearly restricted in some way as alcohol, violence and drugs are (I think this is the only viable method of safety too). I don't mean to sound all 'we need to protect the children' but sex can be a dangerous thing, much like violence or alcohol or drugs. If it is not acceptable for children then it requires a strong element of control.

    I may have misinterpreted these terms though.

    1294944686
    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    Regarding Trafficking:

    Lots of bullshit, racism and blurred data here. Unless someone backs up their argument with solid facts, it can be hard to keep a level head.

    What most responses miss is that we need to impose harsher sentences on those doing the trafficking and better passport control.

    A link to decriminalization, which has taken place in New Zealand: Studies done by New Zealand's immigration department have zero cases of trafficking to report since deciminalization was enacted. There was no increase in the number of sex workers either.

    Worse still are the myths surrouding the 'rescue' industry and the racism against immigrants who want to come to the UK and work as sex workers. Trafficking is complicated and both sides tend to oversimplify the issue but we need to distinguish who is being exploited and who is trying to make a living outside the law. I suspect that the latter greatly outnumber the former.

    Most women travelling from poor countries to wealthier ones to work in the sex trade often use the help of criminal syndicates. When they're business is raided they face the choice of admitting what they did as an illegal immigrant and thus face prison or deportation as a criminal OR they can say that they were trafficked in which case they will not be treated as a criminal. This doesn't happen in every case but you see where this is going............

    One of the biggest solutions is to start listening to these migrant women and what they want.

    And for those who really want to do their homework, this is a fabulously well written piece of work http://www.amazon.com/dp/ASIN/1842778609/?tag=lauragus-20

    Ive been reading that Tigerlillies. Its very interesting actually, but its rather controversial in places!

    1294945177
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Great point to bring up TL, although I'd still fall in the legalisation camp.

    I don't believe decriminalisation (if I understand it correctly) is an attractive prospect because of the unique issues sex can present (compared to many other businesses, say groceries). I think sex does require a unique set of legal conditions to protect some groups, like children. I know I'd be uncomfortable with a brothel 5mins from a school. I agree with age ratings on films for sexual and violent content because although some things can be introduced to children in the appropriate manner there needs to be a strong element of control if you want children to grow up to be sexually (and err... violently) well adjusted adults.

    It seems much more satisfactory to me to ensure the sex trade is clearly restricted in some way as alcohol, violence and drugs are (I think this is the only viable method of safety too). I don't mean to sound all 'we need to protect the children' but sex can be a dangerous thing, much like violence or alcohol or drugs. If it is not acceptable for children then it requires a strong element of control.

    I may have misinterpreted these terms though.

    I agree that parents need to have an imput on what their children watch. Learning how to control the internet in their houses (before bitching about how all porn should be banned) would be a tremendous help. Sadly, a lot kids will see something they don't understand and I think the answer to that is to get young people thinking critically about matters of sex and violence (although I am loathed that the syntax there suggests that the two are connected)

    Example: boy sees lesbian porn. But boy has communicative parents and a network that encourages men to understand that whilst there is no shame in lesbian sex and watching it, lesbians do not exist for male entertainment.

    As I write that, I realise that I'm rehashing a lot of the words that Holly Pervocracy wrote for an excellent article on the matter http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/05/kids-and-porn.html

    Nine times out of ten when the Daily Fail gets in a tizz about children becoming to sexual they're too often putting emphasis on matters that the children are oblivious to.

    1294945619
    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    Oh, I wish i could edit posts. Just to add to what tigerlillies posted. :

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/day-my-god-died/ Is the documentary i was talking about on sex trafficking.

    and this book is brilliant

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Industrial-Vagina-Global-Political-Economy/dp/0415412331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294941947&sr=8-1

    1294945643
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    Great point to bring up TL, although I'd still fall in the legalisation camp.

    I don't believe decriminalisation (if I understand it correctly) is an attractive prospect because of the unique issues sex can present (compared to many other businesses, say groceries). I think sex does require a unique set of legal conditions to protect some groups, like children. I know I'd be uncomfortable with a brothel 5mins from a school. I agree with age ratings on films for sexual and violent content because although some things can be introduced to children in the appropriate manner there needs to be a strong element of control if you want children to grow up to be sexually (and err... violently) well adjusted adults.

    It seems much more satisfactory to me to ensure the sex trade is clearly restricted in some way as alcohol, violence and drugs are (I think this is the only viable method of safety too). I don't mean to sound all 'we need to protect the children' but sex can be a dangerous thing, much like violence or alcohol or drugs. If it is not acceptable for children then it requires a strong element of control.

    I may have misinterpreted these terms though.

    I agree that parents need to have an imput on what their children watch. Learning how to control the internet in their houses (before bitching about how all porn should be banned) would be a tremendous help. Sadly, a lot kids will see something they don't understand and I think the answer to that is to get young people thinking critically about matters of sex and violence (although I am loathed that the syntax there suggests that the two are connected)

    Example: boy sees lesbian porn. But boy has communicative parents and a network that encourages men to understand that whilst there is no shame in lesbian sex and watching it, lesbians do not exist for male entertainment.

    As I write that, I realise that I'm rehashing a lot of the words that Holly Pervocracy wrote for an excellent article on the matter http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/05/kids-and-porn.html

    Nine times out of ten when the Daily Fail gets in a tizz about children becoming to sexual they're too often putting emphasis on matters that the children are oblivious to.

    I agree about the parenting, I don't think I'd have such an issue with decriminalisation if we could guarantee sex would be taught to children correctly but that is an idealised world in my opinion. In practical respects I think legalisation (and the constraints with it) is the most agreeable solution given the imperfections that do, but perhaps should not, exist.

    I agree about the DM thing, it's the stories about things like phallic looking fruit or swearing with *s, they're only there if you know what to look for.

    1294945735
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    This Morning had a former sex worker, an NHS specialist and...some journo, discuss the matter recently. Guess which one was talking of their arse? She dragged in morality and compared the consensual business agreement between two or more people to murder. LOGIC FAIL.

    Another problem with the discussion of prostitution is that it is so often written by hacks with no idea what they're talking about and only consult a 'raunch culture' book and a 'womens studies' professor.

    Sexualisation of children tends to be more of a gendered issue as well and there's iffy class stuff too. So common is the cry 'what are we teaching our daughters' but it's rarely a hysteria that focuses on the boys.

    And Wanda, I know you're as dorky as me for a proper report instead of a sodding Panorama program so check out this shizzle http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/equal/reports-10/eor10-02.htm

    1294945856
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Inara14 wrote:

    Oh, I wish i could edit posts. Just to add to what tigerlillies posted. :

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/day-my-god-died/ Is the documentary i was talking about on sex trafficking.

    and this book is brilliant

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Industrial-Vagina-Global-Political-Economy/dp/0415412331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294941947&sr=8-1

    Excellent, thank you!

    Inara, are we friends on FB? I know you're a former member but I'm so out the loop that I don't know who you are. x

    1294946362
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    This Morning had a former sex worker, an NHS specialist and...some journo, discuss the matter recently. Guess which one was talking of their arse? She dragged in morality and compared the consensual business agreement between two or more people to murder. LOGIC FAIL.

    Another problem with the discussion of prostitution is that it is so often written by hacks with no idea what they're talking about and only consult a 'raunch culture' book and a 'womens studies' professor.

    Sexualisation of children tends to be more of a gendered issue as well and there's iffy class stuff too. So common is the cry 'what are we teaching our daughters' but it's rarely a hysteria that focuses on the boys.

    And Wanda, I know you're as dorky as me for a proper report instead of a sodding Panorama program so check out this shizzle http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/equal/reports-10/eor10-02.htm

    (Insert really bad joke about really good sex and the similarities to being dead)

    I can understand why you disliked the comparison to violence and sex because twits like that can abuse any link. The only link I'm happy to apply is that it is 'adult', as in only adults are really capable of the consequences of it, vague, I know but meh!

    Damn you, you stimulating little miss! (How much have I undermined my points with that comment?)

    You have a knack of provoking great debate that spirals into many related points, such as the gender and class issues. I shall check out that shizzle, if not during revision *gulp*.

    1294946497
    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    Tigerlilies wrote:

    Inara14 wrote:

    Oh, I wish i could edit posts. Just to add to what tigerlillies posted. :

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/day-my-god-died/ Is the documentary i was talking about on sex trafficking.

    and this book is brilliant

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Industrial-Vagina-Global-Political-Economy/dp/0415412331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294941947&sr=8-1

    Excellent, thank you!

    Inara, are we friends on FB? I know you're a former member but I'm so out the loop that I don't know who you are. x

    No we're not - I dont have any friends on FB from here as I keep them both separate! I do recognize you from a long time ago though.

    Anyway, I will stop changing the thread's topic now...

    1294946930
    Tigerlilies [sign in to see picture]
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    Looking at it from another angle, some food for thought. (not arguments just ideas that come from looking at the LH forum)

    • There are some things that people are into where it's much easier to negotiate with someone and compensate them for their time. Plus, you get a professional to do the job. Can't think of examples but then I'm innocent, innit?
    • A lot of clients are simply not looking for an orgasm. They can get that at home, on their own, free of charge. Many are paying for intimacy. You can get intimacy free? Yes, you can but divorcees, the bereaved and the disabled often find a lot of solace and accpetance from working men and women if they're not ready for a relationship or can't get sexual contacy elsewhere . But then I'm of the opinion that consensual sex is a human right and everyone should be given vouchers for it at Christmas. No? Very well.....

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