• Cheater & cheatee - same difference?

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Just to add, perhaps it is more the cheater is to blame for the cheating...the 2 (plus) people in the relationship are both to blame for any problems in the relationship (usually)

    Does that make more sense? Couldn't find a good way to word it.

    Ax

    1257893853
    Ecksvie [sign in to see picture]
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    I know what you mean AdnaW, I feel the same way. The only two people responsible for a relationship are the people in the relationship. Other people can throw problems in the way but ultimately whether a relationship dies or carries on is down to the couple.

    1257894409
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Ecksvie wrote:

    I know what you mean AdnaW, I feel the same way. The only two people responsible for a relationship are the people in the relationship. Other people can throw problems in the way but ultimately whether a relationship dies or carries on is down to the couple.

    Thank you I'm glad you got my meaning, I was worried it was worded really badly!

    Ax

    1257934565
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    I think relationships are really hard. There are a whole lot of skills to be learnt and in my opinion, most of those skills begin with knowing oneself and being able to articulately express oneself to others. I think it's pretty clear that acquiring those skills is far from straightforward, especially since most of us don't even know which specific skills we lack until we've already learnt them.

    I think that cheating is just another example of insufficient relationship skills. In my opinion, cheating by definition includes lying and breaking promises (which also involves lying). We all learn from an early age that those behaviours are undesirable and have an adverse impact on others, and yet almost every individual I know lies and breaks promises regularly, if not every day, then certainly every week. That text I got recently indicating I'd be told somebody was busy instead of simply not wanting to come to my party is a good example of this. They told me they would always be honest with me, so that is not only a lie, it's also a broken promise. Since there are so many lies and broken promises for even the most trivial reasons, and since that behaviour is so commonplace, it stands to reason that cheating would also be commonplace, and indeed, most of us have experienced it from one angle or another. I've been cheated on and cheated with, but never the cheating partner myself.

    I've come across several types of cheater:

    1. cheats sort of as a matter of course because that's how they live
    2. alienates their partner by behaving badly, then blames their partner for their cheating
    3. meets somebody accidentally and is so strongly attracted that they're unwilling to resist
    4. has tried hard and unsuccessfully for a long time to resolve issues with their partner, and is so lonely and desperate for affection that they seek warmth and affection elsewhere

    Most of the 1's I meet are lovely enjoyable warm people as long as I don't rely on them for anything. Most of the 2's I meet pretend to be 3's or 4's. In fact most of the cheaters I encounter are 2's, even those who think they mean well. I had a partner who met somebody they were attracted to when they were with me, and because I'm poly and feel fine with my partners having other partners, I gave my permission for him to be with her within certain limits, which he agreed to respect. On his first encounter with her he transgressed those limits, he lied about that and other things to me for two weeks, and then he blamed me for failing to give him any credit for his suffering from lying to me. He refused to participate in my efforts to discuss and resolve it and the relationship ended at that point. I'd categorise that behaviour as a 2.

    Sometimes a 3 can also be a 4. The 4's I feel really sorry for, but I do consider them to be responsible for taking charge of their life instead of just letting it stumble along unsatisfactorily. I find talking to them frustrating because they really do deserve better, but are unwilling to do anything about that except cheat. So I won't have relationships with them either. I have in the past, and I have moved very carefully to ensure that each and every step of the way was their decision alone, but they always end up blaming me in the end which is very unpleasant.

    One of the primary reasons I dislike getting involved with cheaters is because since they've already lied to their partner, I already have evidence that they're likely to lie to me. So even with the moral issues set aside for a moment, I know that getting involved with a cheating partner is likely to end up with them lying to me and blaming me, both of which I hate, so I won't do it. Since this was the question raised by the original poster, I think it's important to mention this as a good objective reason to avoid relationships with cheaters.

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    masterandslave [sign in to see picture]
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    To me the cheater is more in the wrong than the cheatee, even more so if the cheatee knows about the third person - in some cases they might not, but that's still no excuse and makes the cheater even worse because they are now lying to two people rather than one.

    x

    1257948189
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    masterandslave wrote:

    To me the cheater is more in the wrong than the cheatee, even more so if the cheatee knows about the third person - in some cases they might not, but that's still no excuse and makes the cheater even worse because they are now lying to two people rather than one.

    If the 3rd party doesn't know about their partner's partner, they have no reason to question what they're doing because they have been denied the information they need to make an informed choice. So how is not knowing no excuse? No excuse for what?

    And I think we all know that cheaters lie, and that lying is an integral part of cheating, and that is all really sucky behaviour, I'm with you on that. :)

    1257952527
    masterandslave [sign in to see picture]
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    If they are totally in the dark then they haven't really done anything wrong! But to the third person involved they are still going to blame the other person they slept with in some manner, whether they know how much their OH has been lying or not!

    x

    1257953104
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    masterandslave wrote:

    If they are totally in the dark then they haven't really done anything wrong! But to the third person involved they are still going to blame the other person they slept with in some manner, whether they know how much their OH has been lying or not!

    I'm sorry, I'm really really confused, who is still going to blame whom, whether who knows how much who has been lying?

    For my ease of understanding, can we use "3rd party" for the unrelated person, "cheater" for the partnered cheating person and "cheater's partner" for the cheater's existing partner?

    1257953602
    masterandslave [sign in to see picture]
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    Sorry I meant the cheaters partner will blame their other half (cheater) and the third party (no matter how much lying has taken place) to some extent.

    x

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    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    masterandslave wrote:

    Sorry I meant the cheaters partner will blame their other half (cheater) and the third party (no matter how much lying has taken place) to some extent.

    Thank you, that helps a lot. :)

    I agree that frequently the cheater's partner will blame the 3rd party as well as the cheater, and that's part of why I don't like getting involved with cheaters. However, in my experience that's not always the case, as Peachy keen pointed out on page 1 of this thread. :)

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    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    Lubyanka wrote:

    I had a partner who met somebody they were attracted to when they were with me, and because I'm poly and feel fine with my partners having other partners, I gave my permission for him to be with her within certain limits, which he agreed to respect. On his first encounter with her he transgressed those limits, he lied about that and other things to me for two weeks, and then he blamed me for failing to give him any credit for his suffering from lying to me. He refused to participate in my efforts to discuss and resolve it and the relationship ended at that point.

    Lubyanka wrote:

    masterandslave wrote:

    Sorry I meant the cheaters partner will blame their other half (cheater) and the third party (no matter how much lying has taken place) to some extent.

    Thank you, that helps a lot. :)

    I agree that frequently the cheater's partner will blame the 3rd party as well as the cheater, and that's part of why I don't like getting involved with cheaters. However, in my experience that's not always the case, as Peachy keen pointed out on page 1 of this thread. :)

    Oh also, it never even occurred to me to blame the person my partner cheated with. My issues were with him, not with her. She had no way of knowing what our limits were and my agreement was with him, not with her. When I remember the scummy behaviour of my partner, my thinking has always been about his lies, which were nothing to do with her.

    I did occasionally think of her in terms of thinking she'd been hard done by, but that was all.

    1257969826
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Does cheating have to involve lying? If a person cheats, and tells their partner straight away, owns up to his/her mistakes and is honest with all people involved, are they still cheaters? It might be rare, but it does happen.

    Ax

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    Ecksvie [sign in to see picture]
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    AdnaW wrote:

    Does cheating have to involve lying? If a person cheats, and tells their partner straight away, owns up to his/her mistakes and is honest with all people involved, are they still cheaters? It might be rare, but it does happen.

    Ax

    I think it's possible, but these rare instances are usually mistakes.

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    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    AdnaW wrote:

    Does cheating have to involve lying? If a person cheats, and tells their partner straight away, owns up to his/her mistakes and is honest with all people involved, are they still cheaters? It might be rare, but it does happen.

    That's a good question. In my experience, in a relationship which has been agreed is monogamous, sex with other people, even if disclosed immediately afterwards, does still involve the broken promise of monogamy, which means that promise turned out to be a lie.

    Personally, if I was in a monogamous relationship and my partner was with somebody else and confessed immediately, taking responsibility for themselves, their behaviour, and undertook a solemn promise to modify their behaviour in future, and sat down with me to renegotiate our limits, then I'd be fine with that.

    Because I'm poly and consider sex with other people and cheating to be completely different things, cheating for me most definitely consists solely of lying and breaking promises, no matter what they're about.

    Good question! :)

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    SEXYGET 69 [sign in to see picture]
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    if a person cheats then spills the beans to their beloved afterwards, they are still a cheater I would say. They would have to inform their partner beforehand about what they're about to do to not be classed as a cheater. Then they're partner could make the choice to agree or not to them doing the deed. To cheat or not to cheat? That is the question. SG69 x

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    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    SEXYGET 69 wrote:

    if a person cheats then spills the beans to their beloved afterwards, they are still a cheater I would say. They would have to inform their partner beforehand about what they're about to do to not be classed as a cheater. Then they're partner could make the choice to agree or not to them doing the deed. To cheat or not to cheat? That is the question. SG69 x

    Good point, AdnaW's scenario of confessing immediately still counts as cheating because the behaviour was not negotiated and consented to beforehand. If as SEXYGET 69 points out, the behaviour is negotiated and consented to prior to the action, then by definition that cannot be cheating.

    It's like stealing, which is the possession of somebody else's stuff without permission. Get permission beforehand, and that rules out stealing. So I'd say that the reason cheating necessarily involves lying and breaking promises is because cheating cannot happen when for all sides there is pre-existing negotiated fully-informed consent.

    Therefore by definition,

    • Cheating = Unconsensual Transgression of Pre-Negotiated Limits

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