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  1. Artificial Hymen

    1255032119
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    MaxPower wrote:

    Taking a knife or scalpel to a little girl's genitals without her consent for cultural reasons is abhorrent in my book and always will be. It's deliberate and unnecessary mutilation of a child. End of story.I don't need to witness the procedure or know the exact specifics to know that it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Same as I don't have to see a rape or murder being committed before my very eyes in order to make a judgement call or be intolerant of those practices.

    Yes, all that is abhorrent, I agree.

    However, we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    1255033290
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    1255033900
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    My school, which was very urban and in the centre of an Islamic area (the parents involved were all Muslim and they mentioned religion being the reason for it so I'm assuming it's an Islamic practice even if it's not restricted to Muslims) had people in to talk about it and it became a talking point.

    I don't understand, Muslim parents had people come into their children's primary school to talk about female circumcision? What people? Talk about it to whom?

    1255034526
    MaxPower [sign in to see picture]
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    Lubyanka wrote:

    MaxPower wrote:

    Taking a knife or scalpel to a little girl's genitals without her consent for cultural reasons is abhorrent in my book and always will be. It's deliberate and unnecessary mutilation of a child. End of story.I don't need to witness the procedure or know the exact specifics to know that it's wrong, wrong, wrong. Same as I don't have to see a rape or murder being committed before my very eyes in order to make a judgement call or be intolerant of those practices.

    Yes, all that is abhorrent, I agree.

    However, we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    Female circumcision (FC), female genital mutilation (FGM), female genital cutting (FGC), or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) call it what you like. It still involves using a knife/scalpel to cut away parts of a girl's genitalia. Anyone who in anyway doubts what that means can volunteer to undergo the procedure and see for themselves. At least they'll have consented to having it done to them.

    What do you mean by the term "female circumcision"?

    1255035020
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    MaxPower wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    MaxPower wrote:

    Taking a knife or scalpel to a little girl's genitals without her consent for cultural reasons is abhorrent in my book [...]

    Yes, all that is abhorrent, I agree.

    However, we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    Female circumcision (FC), female genital mutilation (FGM), female genital cutting (FGC), or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) call it what you like. It still involves using a knife/scalpel to cut away parts of a girl's genitalia. Anyone who in anyway doubts what that means can volunteer to undergo the procedure and see for themselves. At least they'll have consented to having it done to them.

    What do you mean by the term "female circumcision"?

    Depending on who does it and in what part of the world, the procedure can vary. I don't believe in or practice any variety of female circumcision myself, so in practice I mean that it's something I personally avoid. If somebody does believe in it, then I accept what they say it means to them, which can differ from culture to culture and from person to person.

    1255035306
    diamonds [sign in to see picture]
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    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    My school, which was very urban and in the centre of an Islamic area (the parents involved were all Muslim and they mentioned religion being the reason for it so I'm assuming it's an Islamic practice even if it's not restricted to Muslims) had people in to talk about it and it became a talking point.

    I don't understand, Muslim parents had people come into their children's primary school to talk about female circumcision? What people? Talk about it to whom?

    could it be that the people who came in to talk about this were like the people who go into school to talk about forced marriages? to make people aware?

    just my thought

    Dxx

    1255035854
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    diamonds wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    My school, which was very urban and in the centre of an Islamic area (the parents involved were all Muslim and they mentioned religion being the reason for it so I'm assuming it's an Islamic practice even if it's not restricted to Muslims) had people in to talk about it and it became a talking point.

    I don't understand, Muslim parents had people come into their children's primary school to talk about female circumcision? What people? Talk about it to whom?

    could it be that the people who came in to talk about this were like the people who go into school to talk about forced marriages? to make people aware?

    In my experience, most administrators of primary schools consider topics such as forced marriage and female circumcision to be inappropriate for young children, so why would there be such a talk in a primary school?

    1255035899
    MaxPower [sign in to see picture]
    • Rank: Officer Cadet
    • Posts: 13
    • Joined: 23 Aug 2009

    MaxPower wrote:

    Taking a knife or scalpel to a little girl's genitals without her consent for cultural reasons is abhorrent in my book [...]

    Yes, all that is abhorrent, I agree.

    However, we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    Female circumcision (FC), female genital mutilation (FGM), female genital cutting (FGC), or female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C) call it what you like. It still involves using a knife/scalpel to cut away parts of a girl's genitalia. Anyone who in anyway doubts what that means can volunteer to undergo the procedure and see for themselves. At least they'll have consented to having it done to them.

    What do you mean by the term "female circumcision"?

    Depending on who does it and in what part of the world, the procedure can vary. I don't believe in or practice any variety of female circumcision myself, so in practice I mean that it's something I personally avoid. If somebody does believe in it, then I accept what they say it means to them, which can differ from culture to culture and from person to person.


    I'm slightly confused. You don't believe in any variety of female circumcision as in you don't believe in it 'tooth fairy' style or you don't believe that it's a right and just practice?

    1255036039
    diamonds [sign in to see picture]
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    Lubyanka wrote:

    diamonds wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    My school, which was very urban and in the centre of an Islamic area (the parents involved were all Muslim and they mentioned religion being the reason for it so I'm assuming it's an Islamic practice even if it's not restricted to Muslims) had people in to talk about it and it became a talking point.

    I don't understand, Muslim parents had people come into their children's primary school to talk about female circumcision? What people? Talk about it to whom?

    could it be that the people who came in to talk about this were like the people who go into school to talk about forced marriages? to make people aware?

    In my experience, most administrators of primary schools consider topics such as forced marriage and female circumcision to be inappropriate for young children, so why would there be such a talk in a primary school?

    i think they do to some extant, like they give u some form of sex ed and drugs ed at primary.

    Dxx

    1255036300
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    MaxPower wrote:


    MaxPower wrote:

    Taking a knife or scalpel to a little girl's genitals without her consent for cultural reasons is abhorrent in my book [...]

    Yes, all that is abhorrent, I agree.

    However, we have no way of knowing whether every person using the term "female circumcision" means the same thing you mean by it.

    [...] What do you mean by the term "female circumcision"?

    Depending on who does it and in what part of the world, the procedure can vary. I don't believe in or practice any variety of female circumcision myself, so in practice I mean that it's something I personally avoid. If somebody does believe in it, then I accept what they say it means to them, which can differ from culture to culture and from person to person.


    I'm slightly confused. You don't believe in any variety of female circumcision as in you don't believe in it 'tooth fairy' style or you don't believe that it's a right and just practice?

    I apologise for being unclear. This is unrelated to the tooth fairy or that kind of belief.

    I personally believe that cutting into any person for the sole purpose of reducing their sexual pleasure and function is harmful to them. I would never do that myself to any unconsenting person, nor would I ever sanction others doing it to any unconsenting person.

    I hope that's clearer.

    1255036529
    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Lubyanka wrote:

    Nexas wrote:

    Ok, I have verbal confirmation either to myself or to a class teacher from three parents (of four children) that they had their daughter's clitoris removed, one of them also had at least part of their daughter's labia removed. They near enough boasted it and it was passed on to people above us. What happened from there, I am unaware of as I am no longer in that school.

    I don't understand, why would parents who don't know you very well and who consider you to be foreign to their culture be telling you about their daughters' private genital procedures? I have taught children for 18 years from a variety of backgrounds, and no parent has ever told me anything like that, even the ones I knew well and who were from cultures which embrace that practice. And I have certainly never encountered any boasting about any such thing. My experience of the people who do come from those cultures is that they don't speak about it, let alone boast, especially to outsiders.

    My school, which was very urban and in the centre of an Islamic area (the parents involved were all Muslim and they mentioned religion being the reason for it so I'm assuming it's an Islamic practice even if it's not restricted to Muslims) had people in to talk about it and it became a talking point.

    I don't understand, Muslim parents had people come into their children's primary school to talk about female circumcision? What people? Talk about it to whom?

    No, there were a high number of children in the area who were complaining about the procedure being carried out, not realising it was anything unusual. The parents didn't ask speakers in, the school did, which is what I said before, and it was discussed with parents and teachers. I can't remember who the people were, but at least one was some kind of medical expert (again, I wasn't here at the time of the first discussions as that was BEFORE I started).

    Ok, well that doesn't fit with any experiences I have had with children, schools or other cultures. If children were discussing female circumcision, my experience is that social services are likely to be called in, not some person to give a talk at the school.

    1255037003
    MaxPower [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm slightly confused. You don't believe in any variety of female circumcision as in you don't believe in it 'tooth fairy' style or you don't believe that it's a right and just practice?

    I apologise for being unclear. This is unrelated to the tooth fairy or that kind of belief.

    I personally believe that cutting into any person for the sole purpose of reducing their sexual pleasure and function is harmful to them. I would never do that myself to any unconsenting person, nor would I ever sanction others doing it to any unconsenting person.

    I hope that's clearer.

    Thank you. That's much clearer. As you said before, it's a highly emotive subject and one that I feel strongly about.

    It is a vile practice and I think anyone who stands up and says so should not be accused of intolerance.

    I felt that asking Nexas (who is much loved around here I believe!) to reconsider his assessment of his 'actual' levels of tolerance over something he had the courage to say was vile was extremely unfair.

    I felt I had to press you a bit on that point. I hope you understand

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    Lubyanka [sign in to see picture]
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    MaxPower wrote:

    Thank you. That's much clearer. As you said before, it's a highly emotive subject and one that I feel strongly about.

    It is a vile practice and I think anyone who stands up and says so should not be accused of intolerance.

    I felt that asking Nexas (who is much loved around here I believe!) to reconsider his assessment of his 'actual' levels of tolerance over something he had the courage to say was vile was extremely unfair.

    I felt I had to press you a bit on that point. I hope you understand

    Actually, I was suggesting that Nexas might want to reconsider his assessment of his levels of tolerance based on his unsupported judgement calls, regardless of the topic. And since I think that unsupported judgement calls are examples of intolerance, and since Nexas himself mentioned his opinions of his own tolerance in the same post, I called him on that.

    Right now his story as he is presenting it makes no sense to me, so I'll just leave it.

    1255043950
    diamonds [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas wrote:

    o_O How does it make no sense? There were people who came in, talked to the teachers and the parents that chose to come to explain how the law sees female circumcision and the teachers got taught how to look for earlier signs of it.

    And I thought I at least showed you that I wasn't making unsupported judgement calls? That we had admittance by parents afterwards etc.? So how is that intolerant?

    i think maybe lubyanak thinks the people came in to speak to the children and not the teachers and parents nexas.

    i think its just a bit of confustion

    Dxx

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    MaxPower [sign in to see picture]
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    Nexas, your account makes perfect sense to me as I read it and your school at the time was absolutely correct in taking action to raise awareness of that awful activity. Also, your judgement call on the practice of female circumcision is one which I completely agree with and is soundly supported by your knowledge of the children involved and the various discussions with the parents. If you're intolerant of the custom of taking a knife or scalpel to a young girl's genitals for cultural reasons then so be it. So am I. There are certain things that simply must not be tolerated.

    Not only are you right in your thinking on this but also to say it openly without fear of recrimination. I see too many examples of woolly thinking where the PC police are so quick and eager to accuse one of intolerance/prejudice/close-mindedness etc etc that they forget the implications of what it is they are defending in their rush to arms, even when it's something they can't condone themselves when they stop for a minute to think about it. And some things are plainly Indefensible with capital I.Such as the mutilation of a little girl's genital parts.

    And I think they more people that stand up and simply say that the practice is wrong (no matter which culture is involved) the better. Maybe one less innocent girl will have to suffer as a result.

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