1. Ep.23 Sexual Happiness Podcast: What Do I Need To Know About BDSM

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    This week Sammi and Nick are discussing BDSM. What does it acutally mean? Is it all gimp masks, leather whips and spanking? So much is covered under the multi-faceted BDSM umberella that it can all get a little confusing. What might someone new to this arena find appealling? What's the difference between 'hard' BDSM and 'soft' BDSM... and what does it all actually involve?

    Maybe you've read or watched Fifty Shades of Grey, the now iconic book/movie that made a huge impact on the popularity of BDSM? Well, here's a chance to discover a kink you might like to explore... What's the best way to bring up the subject with a partner? What would your 'safe word' be?

    And of course we cover our usual segments "You can never know enough about sex" and "Question of the week" where we share what we've learned about sex this week, and answer your sex questions.

    Got a question or topic you want us to cover? Email us at podcast@lovehoney.com or comment below.

    You can find us on iTunes, Soundcloud and Spotify. New episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe to stay up to date!


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    Transcription: Lovehoney Podcast Episode 23

    Sammy [00:00:07] Hello! You're listening to the sexual happiness podcast from Lovehoney, the podcast where we answer your questions about sex and sex toys. I'm Sammy.

    Nick [00:00:14] I'm Nick.

    Sammy [00:00:15] And this week on the show we're asking the question "what do I need to know about BDSM?'

    Nick [00:00:20] What indeed?

    Sammy [00:00:21] Spanking handcuffs, ticklers... All that kind of thing.

    Nick [00:00:24] Beautiful.

    Sammy [00:00:24] Beautiful. But before we get into the details of that, it's time for our "you can never know enough about sex" section. So this is where we share something we learned about sex during the week. So Nick what have you found out?

    Nick [00:00:35] Well I was thinking about our sex maps that we've mentioned on previous episodes, where we found out what the sexiest cities are in the UK and Australia and America.

    Sammy [00:00:46] Yep.

    Nick [00:00:47] And that got me thinking... What about the other countries? And so I did a little bit of research and I found out that the sexiest country in the world - these statistics are a few years old (about 2014) is Greece.

    Sammy [00:01:02] Really?!

    Nick [00:01:03] Yes.

    Sammy [00:01:04] What are the parameters for sexiest?

    Nick [00:01:07] Average number of sexual encounters per person, per year.

    Sammy [00:01:10] Right. Okay.

    Nick [00:01:11] Greece comes out on top.

    Sammy [00:01:13] Greece wins.

    Nick [00:01:15] Apparently.

    Sammy [00:01:15] Well done Greece.

    Nick [00:01:17] Yeah, possibly not definitive, those statistics, but yeah I thought it was quite interesting...

    Sammy [00:01:22] So they have the highest number of sexual encounters per person...

    Nick [00:01:26] Per person, per year. According to the stats.

    Sammy [00:01:26] Lovely, that explains why everyone goes there on their holidays then.

    Nick [00:01:33] Maybe it's that. It's definitely Greek people, not people in Greece.

    Sammy [00:01:33] Let's go to Shagaluf.

    Nick [00:01:33] That's in Spain Sam!

    Sammy [00:01:33] Yeah I know I know. I was thinking of Malia, but I got it wrong. So I found out... there are a lot of kind of old wives tales around when you are trying to conceive a child, about how you determine the gender of the baby before the baby is born... Not how you work out what sex it is, but how you make sure you have a certain sex. So like, you know I think they say for a boy, a man's supposed to wear loose boxers or something and eat a lot of meat.

    Nick [00:02:08] Yeah and have sex on the third Thursday of June...

    Sammy [00:02:11] That kind of thing. And I found out an even stranger belief about that from the 19th century. There was a French physiologist called Eugene Becklard, I think it is, who theorised that the gender of your baby is determined by which partner has the better orgasm. So if the woman has a stronger orgasm it's gonna be a girl. If the man has an orgasm it's gonna be a boy. And I feel if that were the case, given the gender gap, there would be a lot more men in the world.

    Nick [00:02:47] So how did he come to this conclusion?

    Sammy [00:02:48] I don't know! Obviously there's no backing in this. I think he basically, being a physiologist had some...

    Nick [00:02:55] Posited le theory.

    Sammy [00:02:56] Yeah. Just posited a theory in the 19th century and maybe it was just a way of being like "women don't need orgasms, you've got too many girls.".

    Nick [00:03:04] Another one. Yeah.

    Sammy [00:03:05] Patriarchy!

    Nick [00:03:08] Did anyone believe him?

    Sammy [00:03:10] As to that, I don't know.

    Nick [00:03:14] Let's hope not.

    Sammy [00:03:16] Let's hope not.

    Nick [00:03:16] Ridiculous man.

    Sammy [00:03:16] Ridiculous. This is upset. So that brings listeners onto the hot topic of the week which is "what do I need to know about BDSM?" So if any of our listeners who may not be aware, what does BDSM stand for Nick?

    Nick [00:03:29] I've no idea.

    Sammy [00:03:30] Okay, no idea!

    Nick [00:03:32] Well, it can stand for a lot of things. Maybe traditionally it's Bondage, Domination, Sadism, Masochism. But there are other variations on what those letters mean to different people.

    Sammy [00:03:45] Yeah.

    Nick [00:03:46] So the 'S' could mean Submission.

    Sammy [00:03:50] I think I've heard of the D as Discipline as well.

    Nick [00:03:53] Discilpine. Yeah.

    Sammy [00:03:54] And what does all of that mean... Put together?

    Nick [00:03:55] What does that mean all put together? BDSM generally I think, is about a power dynamic between a couple... consenting couple.

    Sammy [00:04:04] Yeah.

    Nick [00:04:05] Where traditionally one person will be dominant and one person is submissive to that person. That's kind of the broad overview thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean...

    Sammy [00:04:17] It's become kind of a catchall hasn't it, for anything kinky I think.

    Nick [00:04:21] Yeah. I think people view it with a very broad brush and throw kink into it as well, which sometimes, kink and fetish do go together with BDSM, but they're not exactly the same thing. And I guess you can... There's hard BDSM, and then there's a bit softer BDSM, which we refer to as 'tie and tease'. Yeah and probably the whole BDSM community would go "I'm not having that!" but it's all part and parcel of the same thing. Where there's some kind of power dynamic going on in a relationship and that is a consensual.

    Sammy [00:04:56] Yeah. As you say consenting and not always necessarily a... not always a romantic relationship, not always just two people, it can be kind of any permutation of the word relationship, really.

    Nick [00:05:08] Yeah.

    Sammy [00:05:09] Yeah. So it's really it's become really popular, or not necessarily more popular but more people are aware of it, I think because if Fifty Shades Shades of Grey.

    Nick [00:05:18] Yes absolutely.

    Sammy [00:05:19] So there are lots of... Obviously within BDSM there are lots of different things, like we said, we've kind of summed up the core but there's so many things that you can do within it.

    Nick [00:05:28] Yeah. Is it all leather and spanking?

    Sammy [00:05:29] Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people think of don't they? They think of kind of...

    Nick [00:05:33] I think they're thinking gimp masks, leather, studs and people walking around with chains on their necks. Which is part of it.

    Sammy [00:05:42] That is part of it.

    Nick [00:05:42] It's a very broad brush so perhaps we should dial it right back to the very start and if you wanted to get started with BDSM...

    Sammy [00:05:51] Yeah.

    Nick [00:05:51] So what kind of things could we recommend?

    Sammy [00:05:54] Yeah I mean, although yeah, the kind of top end of it like you say is this like, where it becoms a full lifestyle and people become very very involved in it and it doesn't just become about sex, there's also various other aspects that feed into it. But if this is something that you want to try in the bedroom with your partner, I think the main thing that you have to think about is okay, what is it about BDSM that is appealing to me? Is it, I would like to be more submissive and I would like to be more submissive in these ways? Or I've always wanted to try spanking my partner or.. so knowing exactly which aspect of it turns you on I think is the first thing you need to think about really. Yeah, because there's just so much within that umbrella. You've got the restraint side of things, like tying someone up, you've got the sensory deprivation side when you pop on a blindfold or that kind of thing you've got. Yeah the impact play which is stuff like spanking, flogging, all that kind of thing. And yeah it's just massive isn't it. So find out what you like.

    Nick [00:06:57] Yeah I think where the best place to start would probably be silky ties and a blindfold.

    Sammy [00:07:04] Yeah.

    Nick [00:07:04] That, if you never done anything remotely like that before, that would be the first place to start because it's not intimidating, it's not threatening unless you don't wanna wear a blindfold - that's the sensory deprivation side of it. Wack a blindfold on and suddenly your other senses are a bit more...

    Sammy [00:07:22] Yeah yeah.

    Nick [00:07:23] Yeah.

    Sammy [00:07:24] Bit more woah. You can tell we're writers! Blindfolds are definitely a really strong place to start.

    Nick [00:07:32] It's all about communication isn't it?

    Sammy [00:07:33] Yes definitely. And even with handcuffs, I think people attempted to go straight for the metal, traditional looking handcuffs... When you're first trying out BDSM, I wouldn't go for those, I'd go for the ones that have like the Velcro fastening because the important thing is that whoever's being restrained feels comfortable and has the option of being able to get out quickly and easily. So yeah, make sure that it's something like that where it's more comfortable, it's easier to release if you decide you don't like it and it's not for you. Just make sure everyone's comfortable, but like you say communication's a massive thing so you've got to be able to talk to your partner. You've got to be comfortable talking to your partner about what it is that you like about the situation and what you want to get out of it, and they've got to be comfortable doing the same as well. So it's probably something that if you want to try it you shouldn't bring up in the heat of the moment really. You should talk about it beforehand.

    Nick [00:08:25] Yeah definitely.

    Sammy [00:08:27] You don't really want to surprise someone with that. And another great thing is a safe word.

    Nick [00:08:32] Yes if Jess was here, and obviously she's not, she would be banging on our microphones going "mention safe words."

    Sammy [00:08:39] Safe words, safe words! Yes. They are very important.

    Nick [00:08:41] Yeah. So a safe word, in case you don't know, that is a word that you and your partner or partners if you have a few more round to play! Is a word that means 'stop. I don't want to do this anymore'. And the reason why we have a safeword rather than just tell 'em to stop, is because telling someone to stop can be part of the play. Almost, oh don't, stop it stop!

    Sammy [00:09:04] Oh stop doing that! Like, keep doing that!

    Nick [00:09:08] Keep doing that! Yeah. So if it's, you know, if you don't want your blindfold on anymore or want the handcuffs off, do you shout "Donald Trump!"or "Boris Johnson" or you know, whatever safe word you want to use.

    Sammy [00:09:19] Would kill the mood in entirely!

    Nick [00:09:21] Alright I get the picture!

    Sammy [00:09:24] There's kind of levels of safe word as well aren't there, so a lot of people do the traffic light system where red, if you say red, that means hard line, stop doing everything and stop that right now. Amber means I'm not sure about that. Can you, you know, can you slow down? Can you do something else. Yeah. And green is just keep going. Continue please. So that's quite a popular one. But safe words generally should be something that you're not likely to say within the context of that play.

    Nick [00:09:55] Yes.

    Sammy [00:09:56] Yes. We did a survey a while ago didn't we on what the most popular safe words were. And some of them were amazing. I think "Dobby" was one of them.

    Nick [00:10:03] As in Dobby the house elf?!

    Sammy [00:10:04] Dobby the house elf?!

    Nick [00:10:06] Oh dear.

    Sammy [00:10:07] Master has given Dobby a wank sock! But yeah, something like that where you're just definitely not going to say it in moment is ideal. And also safe gestures as well. I think this is a thing that people don't necessarily consider... if you're... If the play that you're doing is going to involve someone being in a position where they're not able to talk. So say if they're wearing a gag for example, you need a non-verbal method of communication that they can just stop - some people use like a tapping - pattern of tapping or like a hand gesture is always good. But then also depends on whether your hands going to be free. So kind of have a think before you start about what the best way of communicating to your partner that you might want to stop. And I think people often think as well that the submissive person in this relationship... By being submissive you're basically giving up the power to the dominant partner. And on the surface that's true but really it's the sub that will control everything because it's a sub that gets to decide "I'm okay with that, I'm not okay with that". So it's not a matter of you're losing all control. In actual fact the sub is the one who's really in control of that situation. So don't feel that you'll be out of control. Are there any other kind of safety aspects that you think people should be considering with BDSM?

    Nick [00:11:26] Again it depends what you're doing but a lot of BDSM will involve restraint and like you've already said, impact. So with restraints, always leave a good two finger widths within anything that you're tying summon up with. If you want to do a little bit of light spanking, you need to start off light. Yeah. Whacking someone with a dirty great paddle. You go oh yeah, let's get into BDSM! Smack!

    Sammy [00:11:53] Just get the chopping board!

    Nick [00:11:54] That's going to really hurt.

    Sammy [00:11:56] Always use an open palm...

    Nick [00:11:58] Yeah, if you're going to try spanking for example, then rather than going straight in with the paddle just try the tips of your fingers on your partner's thighs or buttocks as I believe they call it - the bit between your thigh and your bum or your bum and back. Yeah. And then you can graduate from there.

    Sammy [00:12:16] Yeah absolutely. And whatever kind of thing you're interested in - it might not... It might be that you're not interested in using a blindfold but you are interested in restraint or blah blah blah. Or you don't necessarily want to try spanking, but you do quite like the idea of some sort of skin stimulation so you might wanna look at something like a tickler. All of these are just facets of BDSM - you don't have to do all of them but the ones you are interested in, go and research the best things to do because we're just giving like an overall broad outline here. It's important in these kind of situations that you kind of familiarise yourself with what you should be doing, what's safe and what is enjoyable as well.

    Nick [00:12:56] Yeah. Like you say, there's loads of different products that you can use. I always find the best place to find out what stuff does and how to use it will be on the reviews on our website.

    Nick [00:13:07] Yeah. So if you look on any of the products on our website... Ooh there's a there's a feather tickler or there's a leather flogger - you'll find loads of people that have written "ah this is really good for that, this and the other." Loads of advice and you can either go "I don't really want to get whipped or I really want to get whipped." And we do sell some kind of beginner kits don't we, and that will have pretty much everything you need in there. Like some restraints, blindfold, a little flogger, tickler... whatever. Good good value as well.

    Sammy [00:13:40] Yes. And also for more advice. So just who was on the podcast for this currently isn't here. She has done a lot of videos on YouTube on a series that we did called Bondage Gone Wilde, where she gave her tips on various aspects of BDSM. She's very very knowledgeable - please go and check those out because she knows a lot more than we do about this kind of thing.

    Nick [00:13:59] Yeah, come back Jess! Yeah you know they're brilliant, those videos cover just about everything you could possibly wish to know about bondage.

    Sammy [00:14:06] Yes. And another thing I think that people struggle with when they try bondage for the first time - like they'll get their restraints, they'll get handcuffs or whatever. They tie their partner up and then they go "now what?"

    Nick [00:14:19] "What would you like me to do?!"

    Sammy [00:14:22] So what we do have one website is... it's a really good game because I wrote it which is called the Hot Knot Bondage Game. And with that you get a blindfold, you get two silky restraints and you also have a card game in which there are a series of actions on these cards... You and your partner can go through them, you can pull out the things that you want to do or that you want to have done to you. And within that there are also things called 'switch cards.' So in the BDSM community switches are people who flick between being dominant and submissive. They enjoy both. And what the switch cards do, they mean if you pull out a card from this deck and you go "oh I don't really want to do that, I don't want to do that to you but I would like that done to me". If you've got a switch card you can reverse the power. It's like Uno. But yes, so if you are looking for inspiration for what to do, that is a good starting kit.

    Nick [00:15:15] Yes.

    Sammy [00:15:16] Say someone is listening to this and they are going "oh that would be great to try. I'd like to try those things", but they're a bit worried about maybe just buying something on the Lovehoney website and going "look what I bought. Shall we try it?" How can they bring up trying BDSM with their partner?

    Nick [00:15:31] Usually. We say that you communicate about stuff prior to any sexual activity. Not leave it for pillow talk. But my feeling is that this is a really good... a bit of pillow talk is a good opportunity to bring up the subject. So you know, "that was great. You know I'd really love it if next time we did that, you'd tie me up."

    Sammy [00:15:59] Yeah. That's true.

    Nick [00:16:01] And you don't even have to buy anything, you know, suddenly if you're wearing a t-shirt, take a t-shirt half off over your head and then hold it in the middle. And then suddenly you've got a little restraint.

    Sammy [00:16:18] Smart.

    Nick [00:16:23] But that's a good opportunity to bring up a... "Oh darling, I really want you to collar me and lead me around in the bedroom with a chain". If it's just a starting out type thing or "wouldn't it be great if we did that as well."

    Sammy [00:16:38] Yeah...

    Nick [00:16:38] Next time type thing... that would be my feeling.

    Sammy [00:16:42] Yeah. I think that's a good point because like all the... the kind of things you talked about and the kind of products that you could use in a situation - they're not necessarily designed for orgasm. They're all very much more about enhancing the entire sexual experience. And so it might be easier to bring them up in that kind of situation because you're not saying you didn't do the job well enough. You're saying, this would be really fun if we did this as well. So yeah I think that's a really good point.

    Nick [00:17:14] Yeah. Equally, you might not be comfortable with that and just want to be more direct and yeah have the conversation before.

    Sammy [00:17:18] Yeah.

    Sammy [00:17:20] Or yeah, like the other thing that we always say with any kind of trying anything new in the bedroom, is like "Oh you saw it on TV" and you're like "oh that looks interesting, maybe we could try that?" Or my friend said she bought this flogger the other day. Ha ha, how funny. Shall we try it? You know, framing it in the context of something else is a way to kind of introduce your desires without feeling necessarily so exposed about it I guess. Also do a little bit of research around whatever kind of pop culture thing it is you're looking at. Because there are certain... Because of the nature of storytelling. There are certain aspects of BDSM relationships that are represented in the media that aren't necessarily the way they should be represented, but they are good for kicking off a conversation with your partner.

    Nick [00:18:03] Yes. We talked about the tools, for want of a better word, that we can use for BDSM, but it's very much a bondage aesthetic as well isn't there? If you just want to get tied up with some silky ties it's probably a few steps down the road but...

    Sammy [00:18:20] Black and silver kind of...

    Nick [00:18:23] Yeah there's loads and loads you can get that gives off that bondage aesthetic that isn't necessarily a full leather and chains. So we sell a lot of wet clothing. PVC stuff or latex stuff. Faux latex stuff. Even if it's just like a little crop top or...

    Sammy [00:18:41] Lovehoney Fierce collection for example.

    Nick [00:18:41] Yeah. Lovehoney Fierce collection coming soon.

    Sammy [00:18:45] Yeah. And I think also if people... So sometimes people will message us or e-mail us, because they're two completely different methods of communication! But they will say "oh my partner wants me to dominate them but I don't know how and I feel awkward or II feel silly or whatever". But the good thing about fetish-inspired clothing is it can kind of help you get into character when you do stuff like that and it can make you feel more confident or more dominant or more empowered. You know, you can put on a wet look catsuit and be like "ah yes, now I understand, now I can do this". Whereas if you're just in you know, jeans and t-shirt, you might be a bit more like "oh I don't really know". So yeah it can be really helpful for that kind of mental preparation for it as well.

    Nick [00:19:32] Yeah I guess the final way you could approach bringing up the subject with your partner is to go to our website. Look on the bondage stuff and go "Ooh what do you think of that? What you think of that?" I always reckon the best way of going to our website is you go to the most biggest, scariest, most ridiculous thing first and go "Oh my God isn't that hilarious?!" And then you, right, what have they actually got that we can buy? And go back. So there's a beginner's bondage section and our single most popular bondage product is an under the mattress restraints set.

    Sammy [00:20:08] Yes that is massively popular isn't it?

    Nick [00:20:10] So that is a bit of kit that you stick... as it says, you stick it under your mattress and you have suddenly got a full restraint set which you can attach to whatever body bits you want. So...

    Sammy [00:20:22] You've cuffs at each corner of the mattress...

    Nick [00:20:22] Cuffs at each corner of the mattress. Could you tie half of each other up?

    Sammy [00:20:28] Back to our sideways 69er!

    Nick [00:20:36] That's a super popular thing that allows you to, you know, you can start off with just your arms restrained and then move on to having your legs restrained as well. There's loads and loads of stuff but go and have a look.

    Sammy [00:20:48] Yeah.

    Nick [00:20:48] See what tickles your fancy.

    Sammy [00:20:50] Yeah. And it's... If nothing else, no pun intended, I see what you did there! And if nothing else it's fun, it's just fun to go through those things with your partner and be like "oh what's that."

    Nick [00:21:00] So that ties us up nicely...

    Sammy [00:21:02] Ah... Get out! That's my safe word for the show.

    Nick [00:21:11] On to our question of the week: So me and my partner are going on our hols/vacation. And we wanted to make the vacation holiday a little more exciting. What's the best way to take sex toys on holiday with you without ending up red faced at the security scanner?"

    Sammy [00:21:29] Well, I think so...

    Nick [00:21:31] Put them in your suitcase.

    Sammy [00:21:33] Put them in your hold luggage...

    Nick [00:21:33] For starters. For one if you're taking that's got a rechargeable battery in it, you're not allowed to take it in with your hand luggage. They will make you take it out and put it in your suitcase or dispose of it. And that would be terrible.

    Sammy [00:21:51] Yes you don't want your favourite vibrator ending up in a bin at Gatwick.

    Nick [00:21:54] No not in front of your mother in law.

    Sammy [00:21:59] Exactly.

    Nick [00:22:00] Definitely put it in your in your hold luggage no matter what it is. And secondly on the electronic stuff - something with a travel lock.

    Sammy [00:22:10] Yes. Yeah.

    Nick [00:22:14] 'Cause if you're taking something that's rechargeable or... I don't think we sell anything any sex toys with batteries that have travel locks.

    Sammy [00:22:22] No, I think it's only rechargeable toys that have travel locks, yeah.

    Nick [00:22:25] Put the travel lock on. You'll be fine. And then if you are taking something that involves... is powered by batteries. Take the batteries out. So yeah. And I think as well. Stick them in a separate container. Probably a satin bag would do you or a...

    Sammy [00:22:46] A sock will do.

    Nick [00:22:47] A sock will do. Yeah yeah. Yeah, that would be my advice.

    Sammy [00:22:51] Yeah. That's a good plan. Also depending on where you're going, you can't always take sex toys with you.

    Nick [00:22:56] True.

    Sammy [00:22:56] There are certain countries in which it is actually illegal to take sex toys into the country so make sure that you check the laws before you travel. Otherwise it could land you in some hot water. And also don't just think about things like sex toys because obviously yeah, that's important. But lube as well... if you think that your lube is essential enough that you have to take it in your hand luggage, because you can do that, make sure it's less than 100 millilitres so you can get it through security. Don't take the... You know I think we've got two litre bottle! You don't want to be packing that! Also, that's going to take up most of your suitcase room! You can get trouble for any size things you can also get, with lubes, like tiny sachets or tiny bottles that don't weigh anywhere near as much. If you're only going for a week, two weeks, you don't need an entire bottle - you can get, like you do with shampoo, little travel essential lubes. And don't take anything as well that you... this goes for all how holiday packing really, but don't take a sex toy that you would be heartbroken to lose.

    Nick [00:24:02] Yes.

    Sammy [00:24:02] Yeah. Maybe take your second favourite vibe on holiday with you rather than your first favourite because you know, things happen on airlines. And if you're really worried. If you're worried that someone might look when the luggage is being scanned or whatever, and they'll see that you've got a sex toy in there. You can get toys that look like other things, you don't have to take a 14 inch realistic dildo with you. You can take a lipstick vibrator that looks like a lipstick or one of the Womanizer travel ones. The Womanizer Go? I can't remember what it's called.

    Nick [00:24:31] Starlet?

    Sammy [00:24:32] There's the Starlet and then there's the one that comes in... Liberty, Womanizer Liberty, comes in a little house, so that it looks like an ear thermometer in a case and... Yeah, take more discreet looking toys.

    Nick [00:24:42] And have a lovely holiday.

    Sammy [00:24:43] And enjoy your holiday. Yeah. So that brings us to the end of this week's show. But say thank you for listening, we're giving you 15 percent off absolutely anything that you want to buy at Lovehoney. To claim your discount just check out the links in the episode description and you will be taken to the website nearest to you in the world.

    Nick [00:24:58] And if you've enjoyed this week's episode, don't forget to give us the rating you think we deserve. Maybe tell your friends and drop us a review. We'd love to know what you think.

    Sammy [00:25:06] You can also follow Lovehoney on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Follow us on YouTube where we're LovehoneyTV, or if you have any questions you can get in touch with us by emailing podcast@lovehoney.com

    Nick [00:25:16] And don't forget to come back next Wednesday for a brand new episode.

    Both [00:25:19] Thank you for listening. Bye!

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