• Masculinity, male sexuality and confidence.

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    MrsMcX [sign in to see picture]
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    I totally agree with what Ashe said earlier. We have evolved greatly since caveman days, and I still find this thread to sort of be an excuse or justification why some men have a hard time in life. I also agree that people can get on just fine without having both sexes of parents. I've been fortunate enough to be brought up by two parents from each sex, and so as my husband. But I have a male friend who doesn't know who his father is, and was brought up by his mother. The only negative effect it has had on him, is he is worried about having children because he never had a father and doesn't know what sort of father he would be. He has no other adverse affects from it and he's one of the nicest and genuine people I know. I also have three friends who are siblings, who's mother died when they were young. Two of them are boys, and one of them is a girl. One of the boys and girl are now teachers, and the other boy has a job doing manual labor. These have also had no negative effects from being brought up by one parent. I find the one parent argument is just another reason that people blame on their own personal problems. It's purely just an excuse because they can't face up to how they have messed up their own life and want someone to blame for it. There are plenty of people around who have come from a two-gender parent household that have stressed and have messed up their life, but that's just them messing up, if they only had one parent the blame would be put there. Your life is what you make of it and no one else can be blamed for anything apart from what you do yourself. No matter what happens, once you're an adult you have to make your own choices and fight for yourself and stop making excuses.

    All males have testosterone, and not one male is the same as another. One male coming from a single sex parent home, will have a totally different experience than another male in the same situation. Every single person is different so blaming testosterone on why men have a hard time in life is just ridiculous. Boys don't just join a gang because of testosterone, or because they've had a bad upbringing. Boys will join gangs for many reasons, maybe they don't know where they're heading in life, maybe they just want some friends, or maybe it's peer pressure, but I don't believe testosterone plays a part, because every single man would be in a gang, and I don't know anyone who's in a gang.

    Similarly with the midwife comment, why can't men be midwifes? Does that mean that women can't be a midwife unless they've had a child themselves? Before I gave birth I had no idea what it would be like, and there are plenty of midwifes around that don't have children, so how can they feel any sympathy when they haven't been through it themselves? Midwifes aren't there to hold your hand and tell you how it'll be okay because they've done it before, they are there to make sure that a baby arrived safely and the mother is safe too. This is something that are learnt and taught to a high standard and whether you're male or female, you still have to have the correct knowledge to deliver a baby. Are you saying men shouldn't do that job because they have testosterone in their body? Therefore they are not as able as a woman? In my moment or need I wouldn't care if it was a man or a woman looking after me, as long as they were capable of doing their job and knew how to look after me an deliver my baby safely. Maybe the older generation of women would prefer a woman because they older generation tend to be more sexist, and I believe this is the true reason why this is a topic of conversation, I believe you're of the older generation that focus too much on someone's sex.

    I'm nearing the completion of a physics degree, which also has a huge aspect of chemistry and biology, so I know a lot about the human body and the particles and elements that make up testosterone and can't see any reason why this would be to blame for any of your reasonings. But also, physics is a very male orientated field, should I not be doing it because most physicists have testosterone and I don't?

    I strongly disagree with your opinion on a male role model teaching a boy to respect women, and I think if anything, it's more up to a mother to show boys how to respect women.if a boy chooses to disrespect women, that's not because of a certain type of role model, I've had two ex boyfriends who don't respect women who have had two parents bringing them up in a loving household. I think the main reason men disrespect women is because of the influence of friends that they have, it's all about showing off and that has nothing to do with parents. Surely if a young man feels the need to be head of the household, then they already have respect for their mother and feel like they need to support them. In my opinion, that is respecting a woman. If they disrespected a woman they wouldn't do a thing to contribute to the household and they would take advantage.

    Everything that you have said here doesn't benefit my relationship in the slightest. I am very open with my husband and we have a solid relationship based on trust and communication and that had nothing to do with the amount of testosterone in his body. How come no one has started a thread about all the emotional changed a woman goes through? Men do go through changed and levels of testosterone, but they learn to deal with this. Womens hormones change constantly over their lifetime and there's no mention of how this can affect women. There are female gangs, have they had too much testosterone in their body too? I have had testosterone in my body. When women are pregnant they absorbe testosterone in their body from the baby, if they're carrying a boy. I've had one single male birth and a twin male birth. My testosterone levels were monitored in my twin pregnancy, and they were incredibly high, so yes, a woman does know what it's like to have testosterone running through their body.

    With regards to someone mentioning domestic violence, I must stress that domestic violence doesn't just happen to a woman by a man. It also happens to a man by a woman, and this happens more often than anyone would dread to think. I worked in a solicitors and I've seen it all. What's the excuse for that? Does the female have too much testosterone and the man doesn't have enough? That seems to be a very unfortunate coincidence.

    Your life is what you make it. Everyone has the same biological structure, some people have one parent, some people have two parents. But ultimately, the choices you make are your own and this can't be blamed for anything apart from your own actions. Testosterone has absolutely nothing to do with it, and it's yet another excuse for some men to try and have a reason for their own failings.

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    Gentle giant [sign in to see picture]
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    Hi Mrsx wow how wonderful of you to take the time to post such in depth thoughts. For that example im grateful. All so I hope it encourages others to do so. As with most things that evoke such deep emotional feeling we allow this to get in the way of the objective. I did not say all men, I all so said that many have adapted and are fine. I also in no way condone or give it as an excuse for violence. I all so execept all those men that have come through one a another hard ship in their up bringing that are happy one parent, same sex or none.

    I point out again the thread was started to just try to get this subject started. I will go specific on one of your comments . As I hope this may help you just consider someone else's opinion your male friend who is a wonderful man. Unless you have slept with him, you have now idea how secure or confident in his love life he is. Thats why this such an evocative subject .. It's great you are studying science my own daughter is doing the same. But I feel sure that men's emotions, feelings and sexual confidence and how there testosterone levels effect them are not in your coarse books or studies.

    These ideas and thoughts are not my own they are Steve Biddulphs an eminent child and peranting psychologist . Who has had millions of his books sold world wide and still lectures. The main ones I am referring to is bringing up boys and the new manhood.

    I am not a writter or a psychologist , but I have put his ideas and thoughts into practice with some wonderful results.

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    MrsMcX [sign in to see picture]
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    I actually do know that so far, he has no problems, because me and his girlfriend hes been with 8 years, discuss lovehoney quite frequently and can speak openly with each other. I don't see how having one parent can lead to problems in the bedroom. Are you saying that all men that have problems come from one parent families? I know you're technically saying not 'all' men, but you're implying that some men, like my friend, can have problems in the bedroom because of single parent households...just where exactly did you find this out? Because as far as I'm concerned it's something that you've just plucked out of the air. Implying that men from single parent families will ultimately have some sort of mental health issue is a terrible thing to say. You don't know it for a fact, it's solely your opinion, and an offensive one at that.

    I don't feel like you're really helping anyone understand men, and constantly repeating "no woman can understand" is patronising, like a lot of your other comments. I also find it quite pedantic. Interesting to see you didn't reply to any questions I asked that debunk your theory.

    You're right, but I can guarantee that I'll have more knowledge about the chemicals and their reactions that are produced in the brain, including the effects of testosterone. But similar, just because you have a penis, doesn't mean you have a right to give anyone advice regarding something that seemingly applied to very little people.

    Also, stating that someone is transgender because they mustn't have had enough testosterone, or because of the way that they've been brought up is probably the most insensitive thing I've ever heard. You don't know that person, you don't know their personal circumstances and you don't know their biological structure so you simply shouldn't comment. Not everything is black and white and goes by the book. Not everyone can be pigeon-holed like you seem to think. And quite frankly, not everyone cares. Just let people get on with their own business.

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    Lou22 [sign in to see picture]
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    I can see and appreciate the importance of a thread such as this but i have to say that i am myself a bit disappointed with the turn it's taking.

    GG i think you'll agree that despite the fact i may not have agreed with much of your post my only real sticking point was your apparent refusal to accept that, while i may not fully understand how a mans mind works, you are in the same position when it comes to women. This was in no way meant to spark a sexist debate it was just a fact. Was the comparison even necessary?

    That however is not what is now bothering me in regards to this thread. Earlier i did genuinely think that you were hoping for an open discussion (which got a little of track i admit) but as the thread goes on it seems we have people giving their opinions and you trying to correct them with the advice you think they 'clearly need' (i think that was the term i saw used?).

    I respect your opinions but they are just that, YOUR opinions. If people choose to take advice from your posts then great but i think if you are wanting people to take on new thoughts and ideas on what is obviously a real problem you may need to do the same yourself.

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    Ashe66 [sign in to see picture]
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    I was raised with a lot of older men being around a lot, the type who expected because of their age they deserved respect... respect doesn't work like that, it is earned, not taken on some daft age superioty complex. You mentioned young tribal leaders going to war... why? To protect the crop, to expand, etc? My point there is simple, in such a tribe it is often good to go to war, as it is in some cases for more "advanced" countries. I'm sure you'll find many cases of elders going to war, Hitler as a great example was no teenager (certainly not an elder, but as an example it kind of works).

    You also forget the difference between maturity and age, there are some people who act like children and are nearly old enough to be in a retirement home, then you have kids who could easily look after themselves and their entire family at the same time... age has little to do with wisdom and being able to guide people.

    As for me personally... I suffer from depression to a point I can't work for various reasons, 95% of the support I've had over the years has been from women, long before I considered myself transgender, there is no need to segregate men and women, as a race we are stronger for being able to take ideas etc from anyone of any gender.

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    Gentle giant [sign in to see picture]
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    Thanks Lou, you are quite right and Thankyou for trying to help you have managed to clarify a few things for me.
    This has all got to personal. A few other men did post earlier but have now stopped shame.
    Mrsx as for out of thin air I guess you were writting as I posted were I got the ideas from.
    Here is a statement that I hope may help. A small MINORITY of men from every back ground of upbringing, MAY suffer from one or some of the issues I have raised.
    You have been lucky with your friends and family not to have come across one of these boys. Over a 11 years I coached youth rugby teams, during this period I had 5 boys that I had helped. 3 came from single mum's not their fault the dad's walked out when the boys were all under 10. The other 2 came from both parents together families all had been in involved with the police and 1 was about to be put on medication. I cannot say whether or not in later in life they are all happy and confident in there love lives. But in my OPINION the controlled use of there testosterone driven aggression under a managed conditions , with strong male guidance was what these boys all needed. One even made it to trials for England under 16s. Another's father became involved to try and understand how he could help his son. Similar to one of your male friends he had lost his own father as a boy. He had showered his son with love with out any boundaries and the lad had run riot.. I could be wrong and maybe it was all just coincidental that all five improved dramatically.

    My post are genuine and are nothing more than trying to help some women understand what MAY be going on in there men's minds. Some how you are making me feel like you think these are veiled sexist posts and I am some sort of devoius troll. Is it any wonder that these men would not open up and discuss these issues when confronted with opinions such as yours.
    Masculinity unwanted.

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    MrsMcX [sign in to see picture]
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    I can assure you my husband can discuss with me whatever he wants to, and have communication skills that I'm proud of. So just because my opinion isn't the same as yours, which you seem to think it should be, it hasn't had any adverse affects on my husband.

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    Alastor [sign in to see picture]
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    Is that you AA? Or is it Ashe?

    There is so much to comment on in this thread it is difficult to even attempt the task. Maybe a Word-doc tomorrow.

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    Gentle giant [sign in to see picture]
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    Mrsx that's wonderful, great ( genuine comment no sarcasm meant) and no different than me you, want help others who are less fortunate here on LH.

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    Gentle giant [sign in to see picture]
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    Hi AA. Morning. As I have posted these are not my theories all I have done is used them with some boys with behaviour issues and I was amazed at how they worked. I am not that intelligent unfortunately. I have tried and failed in one post to give a summary of what Steve Biddulph wrote in a couple of books. I guess again to try and sum up. He is saying to help boys and men who are having life problems you need to understand what is at all their cores. Then you can move on to the specifics.

    I agree, I can see that some of the issues you have are with me and my inability to post these theories in an acceptable way for you. I do wish I had studied harder in English.

    Yes all men will have these thoughts but not in way that will effect there relationships.
    For a minority this will effect their relationships.

    In no way was I trying to marginalize or belittle ladies problems. I think what has happened is because I started the thread and it was specifically for ladies to try help understand some men's issues. there was no consideration for how this would make a woman feel.

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    Lou22 [sign in to see picture]
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    Morning GG. I can't speak for anyone else of course but i'm not offended by what you've posted nor do i feel like you were trying to belittle womens problems. I did feel the need to comment on some things as you know but perhaps in a thread designed to be about male issues the comparison wasn't needed.

    I realise you feel this has turned into a sexist debate but i don't agree, it's not that i don't respect your opinions or that you haven't explained them well but certain parts of them i just don't think hold any water despite the fact they may be someone elses theories.

    For example i wont argue that testosterone must have a strong effect on a man that can be scary when they first kick in. They effect people in different ways of course but this is a fact we know of hormones and i again wont argue that without guidance that SOME young men may not know what to do. I'll also admit that as a women i wont know how it feels.

    However i believe these are problems men have ALWAYS faced, as others have stated i don't really believe that things were any easier for them back in the so called 'simpler times'.

    There seems to be a somewhat romantic view of the caveman times due to the idea of people living in groups, protecting each other. It does sound good but i'm not sure humans were so different back then that we weren't capable of disrespecting people, fighting and ousting people from groups even if they were family and if a person did find themselves out in the cold they may well end up without shelter and food and quickly die. This is all conjecture on my part of course but i find it hard to believe human nature has changed so much if our 'base instincts' haven't.

    There is also the issue of food. Yes men were the hunters and protectors but from the (little i admit) knowledge i have women did provide food for the homes by foraging etc., everybody provided in their own way so by that token men would have felt more pressure during the periods of our history when women weren't more independent.

    As i say i don't disagree that the problems exist, of course they do. Nor do i deny that a mans hormones can play a part in this, they're a fact of your biology, how could it not effect the body in some way however big or small. What i don't believe is that the changes in society is whats causing it because i don't believe that lack of confidence and insecurity is a new problem for anybody.

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    Gentle giant [sign in to see picture]
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    Morning Lou Thankyou for your calming influence. Because I started the thread with the " cave man " Hunter gatherer" bit this seams to of stuck. It was one chapter of one of the books I read that's all. In my mind posting on LH forum. I romantically thought it would would help. That backfired. Instead of teasing men out to help with subject . It portrayed me as a chauvinist.lol.

    On a serious note if I can try to put it back on track. To read that a woman thinks a male or father figure isn't important any more. Is a great post for me to show how a man would find that very undermining.
    This is not a sexist remark but it does show one way that masculinity and male confidence is being undermined and in my opinion detrimentaly to the child ,especially boys.

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    Lou22 [sign in to see picture]
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    The father figure debate is hard for me to discuss in detail as it's something i have little knowledge of. My parents married quite young and are still together, so are my partners parents and in fact most of my friends. A rare thing perhaps? I also have no children yet.

    I do completely take your point that if a man is told or if it is even just in someway implied that he is not needed in a relationship particularly when it comes to raising a child it would be undermining to say the very least!
    I'd like to think however that the idea that women don't see father figures as important isn't true. I would like to have children one day and i don't intend to raise them alone, i want my partner around for me and any future children. I hope one day this happens and he is there for every part of it.
    I think perhaps what people are getting at is that children and people in general are stronger than you think. Of course some people may (and do) unfortunately suffer due to lack of guidance but the rest just deal with it. I'm not saying it's right, a harsh reality perhaps, but when necessary children can adapt and cope in ways that would surprise you. Sometimes parents, mother OR father, aren't around for whatever reason (sometimes a reason that sadly can't be changed) and the other person is left to be both mum and dad but the children cope. Which i what i THINK others may have been getting at.

    As i say i can't comment on lack of how lack of a male influence may effect a young man as i have little experience of it. I do however have a brother. We both grew up in the same loving environment, same education etc. and ... well lets just say our lives have gone down VERY different paths, for whatever reason. Make of that what you will but as you say these things cannot be applied to every person.

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    Again I think every part of this issue is a human issue, rather than a male issue.

    I do believe that in society today, much more couples do split up, because it has been made a lot easier for them to do so nowadays. 100 years ago, or even longer, when women were more reliant on their partner because they were not working...couples had to stay together. Today, it isn't like that.

    However, it is well known that children are great at adapting to situation. I honestly do not think it is any better on a child to grow up in a household where it is clear the mum and dad do not like each other. In fact, I think it is probably worse. What does it teach a child to watch his parents constantly fight, or disrespect each other, never talk and so on? Is this better? Do young men (and women equally) grow up well rounded in this situation simply because their parents stayed together to raise them? I don't think so. I think it would teach them a lot of bad habits regarding the opposite sex and how they should be treated, because children can grow up to emulate their parents. I would place money on my belief that there are just as many children who grow up confused or screwed up because their parents stayed together in a negative relationship, as they do when their parents split. In fact, I think more would likely get screwed up in the first scenario.

    I don't think I therefore agree about society emasculating men. I believe in a couples right and ability to split up if it has got to the point that they treat each other bad and the kids pick up on it. I don't think woman in this day and age want to raise their children in a one parent household but I respect their (Both the males and females) decision for splitting up and being separate to actually avoid scarring the children. It is not a case that women are emasculating men or deciding we can do it without and don't need men. It is simply a lot easier now for women to leave, or men to leave knowing their children will be fine.

    Children do not them continue through life having no male influences. Men exist in every walk of life. It could be grandparents, their dad, who they still see, teachers, leaders of clubs or sports or other hobbies, step fathers and of course, peers. All of these people are male role models and influencers on the growing child (Male or female) and no child goes through life without some male role models around (Unless its some kind of female only cult I guess)

    I agree with Lou in that I don't think many females believe that males are not important, but I am sure you would agree that most humans, male and female, will want the best for their child and in situations where a split has happened, it is safe to say at least one of the parents has made a decision that the children will be raised happier and healthier if the other person was not around or if the two of them were not together in a relationship.

    Most of us would actually prefer to be happy in a relationship and raise the children together, but this doesn't always happen. Males who were on the childs birth certificate have equal parental responsibility in the UK and as long as he isn't a threat to those children, he is entitled to see those children. (This also applies to the mothers) So the father can and should still be a role model and a strong presence in his childs life, despite not being with their mother any more.

    But again, it is only a small minority (in your words) of males that do go off track and get into trouble. I agree that testosterone may play a part, but I think all that testosterone does is give the male this access energy and aggression. It is then up to that young man to decide where to divert his energies. I think it is unfair to assume that testosterone rules the male brain. I think most men use their intellect to burn off the testosterone in ways you already pointed out. Getting involved in sports, friendly competition with friends, competing for careers and more. It is only the small minority of young men who go off the rails and although testosterone may have caused the initial spark, it did not control the man and cannot be used as an excuse for shitty behaviour because males have choices. Do they make a good one or a bad one, this is up to them as individuals and women have these same choices of course. We also have testosterone in our body and we are not all sweet, calm people! Some women can be more competitive or even aggressive than men.

    I still revert back to my initial comment here, that if this issue was viewed as a human issue, we then get to the crux of the matter, which is that some people, whether by nature or nurture, struggle in society today. Whether that be talking, admitting they have stress/anguish and making stupid decisions that get them into trouble or into problems. I believe though, that this has been the case throughout the existence of mankind. I believe every single one of us suffers through stresses, grievances, anger, sadness, low confidence, low self esteem and all the rest, at one point or another. I believe most of us get through it stronger and learn some life lessons, whereas others cannot and really struggle with crying out for help. I believe that we all can suffer sexual issues at some point or another, for a vast variety of reasons. (And I do NOT believe these issues affect women less, simply because we can slap some lube on it and continue anyway. This overlooks the emotional, mental issues behind most sexual dysfunction and only focuses on the physical part of the issue.)

    I don't believe the issue is any worse for men than it is for women, or that issues exist in men simply due to hormones and a lack of father figure. I think this disrespects the males ability to make choices. Almost suggesting that his hormones and bad experiences in life are going to rule him, rather than he being able to make his own choices. For every man you can show me that has grown up without a father figure or having bad experiences and turned out bad, I can show you one who grew up having bad experiences and turned into a fine example of a human being.

    One of my mothers friends raised 5 boys alone after their father died too young. She never wanted another man again and she raised those 5 boys alone. When the father died, the eldest was about 8 or 9. All of those boys grew up to be fine young men. Shining examples of human beings. Not a single one went off the rails. (In he slightest)

    You say the women in this thread are proving that we, as a society, are emasculating men or showing that we do not need men. I disagree. I think you (or the guy who wrote this book you refer to) are emasculating and discrediting men by telling them they have no agency and no control. That their hormones and their past will control them and that if they have bad experiences, then they are most likely doomed. I think a small minority of males may indeed go off the rails in this way, but then so will a small minority of females and it is a credit to every male (and female) who grows through his bad experiences and shows his strength in his ability to make his own decisions and to put his energy and aggression into positive life experiences. Most males can do this and do do this on a daily basis. More men do this, than don't do this. Men deserve more credit here. x

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    Lou22 [sign in to see picture]
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    I don't seem to be able to quote but in regards to the last paragraph Avrielles post, i had been pondering this myself.

    The idea that as women 'we have no idea how you feel' does seem to have cropped up a couple of times.
    Having been in the position where i didn't want to talk to my partner about things i was feeling because i didn't think he would understand, it wasn't until we really talked that things got better. Only then did i realise how much he could relate to how i was feeling, even though he hadn't experienced the things i had, the various worries and concerns still existed in his mind even if only in theory.

    My point being that men and women may be different, have different things going on in their bodies, but we all still suffer from the same stresses, insecurities etc. It's true that the root cause of said insecurities may be different but that's true of any person, it's difficult to know what goes on in anyones mind really.
    Maybe the way forward in getting people to communicate more easily is to accept the fact that despite our more obvious differences we all probably understand each other a little better than you seem to realise.

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    Jazzam [sign in to see picture]
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    GG I know you wanted my opinion on some of the discussion within this thread, and I will try to give it as openly and as honestly as I can.
    I actually read through this thread when you made it, and I wrote so many potential replies all of which I felt never truly explained myself or how I felt regarding it.

    First and foremost. I think each and every person in this thread is in some way correct and that it is only the failure to word things in the same way that we feel them that confuses us and makes our opinions seem that much stronger/aggressive.

    My own opinion? Regarding the Caveman theory I do in fact believe that we are no longer cavemen. And as a female living in an almost role reversed relationship I believe that Caveman Theory is something to be considered with any male in question but is most definitely not the defining answer or excuse for ones behavior.

    I think we are, as a race, lost and confused. Stressed out over who we are expected to be. I believe that structured education and exams stretches our youth beyond its means. Yes it tests them, but too far and with what kind of knowledge? I'm sorry but along with their Maths, English and Science I want my sons to learn how a combustion engine works and proper html coding so that they can design their own websites for the businesses I wish they will own. I don't give a rats ass if my son knows how many wives Henry VIII had beheaded or be able to name the characters in Macbeth.

    I actually believe that often we go through the most important stage in our life believing that we are working to make our lives easier. That the educational system will give us an easy answer later in life. We will be successful. We will have Money, We will have Power.
    The disappointment that comes after a life in education is enough to knock any man or woman down. To start them on a journey of self doubt. You thought you were becoming the best, the strongest, the fastest. You were wrong. What else have you been wrong about? Are you as good in bed as your teenage self believed? Are you as attractive as that girl you met in the club seemed to think?

    I think the desire to be the best is there whether we are male or female. I think this post would be better aimed at a concept of;
    "Women, don't forget that many of your men may not show you how they truly feel, they can sometimes be less emotionally developed than you"
    Rather than a concept of "feeling" different to us because of testosterone.

    In regards to a Male role model?
    I do not believe that a male role model is any more important than a female roll model depending on how you wish to raise your children.
    I DO however believe that the role models a child has in life (not just parents) significantly affect who they are as people.

    I think all children are very different. Some boys raised exclusively by their mothers will become naturally dominant, flourishing from a feeling of strength to be there and protect the person they care most for. Others will slip back into a more feminine role, continuing what they have learned. I do not think either of these things are bad, but I feel it is important for the parent to identify and support accordingly as early as possible.

    I do not believe that the physical gender of a parent matters, but rather who they are emotionally and the way they teach their children.

    I believe that a masculine child needs the feeling of closeness and bonding that they get from a likewise masculine parent. Mother or Father. I think this is where the confusion comes in. Often particularly masculine boys do not relate to their feminine mothers as well as they would a traditional father.
    This is not to say they need a MALE model, but rather they need someone who understands and relates directly to how they feel, someone to connect to... that knows their feelings through experience not just parenting books. In the absence of someone like this, they look to their peers who may also be struggling to understand themselves creating a loop of doubt in their personalities.

    This also goes the same for women. I am very masculine by nature, if my only role model had been very feminine I could imagine I would have felt frustrated as I grew up. I get frustrated now just trying to be friends with women... let alone having my only role model be the opposite to everything I think and feel.

    So in summary I think it is more than possible for parents to step up and assume both roles in raising their children. I think they can do an excellent job. But I also think that it is important to consider that not all lone parents will step up and be that person, and where they fault in this, it is possible for the child to suffer from it and I can certainly see where the concept of specific role models comes in.

    And now I've lost my train of thought so I'm gonna end this ridiculously long post here....

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    Jazzam, Thankyou for taking you for taking the time and effort to reply. Very interesting.

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