• real life BDSM v books ?

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    kinkyqueen [sign in to see picture]
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    Just to say thankyou all for your thoughts on this. I have been following this forum for a while, before plucking up the courage to join in. I have taken on board everything that has been said and can see what you are all trying to put across. I'm no spring chicken so I am aware that these books are just fantasy, not real life. Still it was very interesting to see how other people see bdsm erotic literature.

    1390166106
    Alastor [sign in to see picture]
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    I do have a problem with the novel-length hetero-BDSM books I have encountered recently, but it is not 'scene' related.

    Too often, despite the lip-service sometimes paid to gender-equality, I found the authors effectively advancing the subordinate submissive woman as the ideal archetype. No matter how much any open-ended training camp stressed that controlling high-achievers of *both* sexes might benefit from experiencing submission, when it comes down to the 'successes' they are basically ideal, long-term, romantic entanglements where the female gains what power she possesses only through the submissive role. Sexism and the status quo, sold with saccharine and packaged with PVC. Leather-bound Mills & Boon with paddle bookmark.

    How did we arrive at such a parlous state? Is that abominable inner goddess to blame? I can remember Anne Rice's erotica decades ago being far more liberated (and of course vastly better written than much that gets published today).

    Of course, there are works specialising in submissive males, but they don't tend to attempt to sell a life-long relationship as the only goal worth pursuing.

    Rant over.

    1390171923
    Candied Citrus [sign in to see picture]
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    Alastor wrote:

    I do have a problem with the novel-length hetero-BDSM books I have encountered recently, but it is not 'scene' related.

    Too often, despite the lip-service sometimes paid to gender-equality, I found the authors effectively advancing the subordinate submissive woman as the ideal archetype. No matter how much any open-ended training camp stressed that controlling high-achievers of *both* sexes might benefit from experiencing submission, when it comes down to the 'successes' they are basically ideal, long-term, romantic entanglements where the female gains what power she possesses only through the submissive role. Sexism and the status quo, sold with saccharine and packaged with PVC. Leather-bound Mills & Boon with paddle bookmark.

    How did we arrive at such a parlous state? Is that abominable inner goddess to blame? I can remember Anne Rice's erotica decades ago being far more liberated (and of course vastly better written than much that gets published today).

    Of course, there are works specialising in submissive males, but they don't tend to attempt to sell a life-long relationship as the only goal worth pursuing.

    Rant over.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you here, and have thought the exact same thing many a time myself!

    In fact, a friend of mine and I were speaking about FSoG, and she was telling me that when she first heard the premise of the book - the fact that he was this high-up, powerful man - she naturally assumed that he was looking to be dominated by her - the whole relinquish control in the bedroom since he can't elsewhere in his life. And she'd have to come to terms with the dynamic, and likely discover that she enjoyed it, or whatever.

    And I personally think that that would've made for a much better story - though not if it were written by the same author, because her writing style is awful.

    1390172607
    Alastor [sign in to see picture]
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    From what I have heard about the book (and therefore refuse to buy a copy) I would want Ana to grow a set, take a baseball bat, knock the self-important sadist out, tie him up and give him some of his own medicine.

    Which provides extra options for the bat later on.

    1390214037
    kinkyqueen [sign in to see picture]
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    But don't you think that it really depends on the individuals kink? I think it swings both ways. I know there are plenty of women out there that have this fantasy to be dominated regardless of the fact society says we are equals. I also don't think power, in the form of money or status, has got anything to do with it. It probably goes back to caveman days and survival of the fittest. In other words it's in our genes.

    Think about how many copies of fsog have been sold worldwide. It's primarily aimed at the femail reader, and yes I agree, what about submissive men, but I think this book and the others that have since got on the bandwagon, have opened up a whole new way of thinking for an awful lot of people. So love it or hate it, fsog, has transformed the sex life of many. I think Lovehoney would probably concur, especially looking at increased sales of bdsm items lol.

    1390244935
    Alastor [sign in to see picture]
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    kinkyqueen wrote:

    But don't you think that it really depends on the individuals kink? I think it swings both ways. I know there are plenty of women out there that have this fantasy to be dominated regardless of the fact society says we are equals. I also don't think power, in the form of money or status, has got anything to do with it. It probably goes back to caveman days and survival of the fittest. In other words it's in our genes.

    Think about how many copies of fsog have been sold worldwide. It's primarily aimed at the femail reader, and yes I agree, what about submissive men, but I think this book and the others that have since got on the bandwagon, have opened up a whole new way of thinking for an awful lot of people. So love it or hate it, fsog, has transformed the sex life of many. I think Lovehoney would probably concur, especially looking at increased sales of bdsm items lol.

    Well, you are, of course, right about individuality, but the problem is not what sexual roles people, either in or out of books, find highly arousing. My original point was not specifically aimed at that execrably-written trilogy either.

    The problem is the way in which such books generally take a sexually-charged submissive response and apply it as an overall model for life rather than a means of enjoying aspects of that life. Likewise the assumption, within these supposedly liberated/ing books, that what a women must have to complete her life is a man to whom she must be subservient in all things (and desire to be so). Unfortunately it is just such a set of choices that are celebrated as the most succesful and desirable, even when within the context of the narrative, many others might be possible.

    It is both propaganda, and exploitative of the previous exposure of the reading public to the same propaganda. The strong, powerful master 'looking after' (read: 'controlling') his adoring possession. The sexual charge is cultural to a much larger degree than is acknowledged I think... take your reference to the caveman for example: You probably call to mind the notion that men took their clubs, perhaps subdued their women with them (oo-er missus!), and then dragged them back to their own caves, where, having thus proved their suitability as a life-partner, they retain their recently acquired possession. But is there any actual evidence for this archetype? No. The survival of the fittest *might* result in males needing to be able to outcompete other males by physical force or cunning, but why would they need to apply this to females. By your analogy, women should find a man dominating other men sexy, not dominating them.

    So the problem is that, whilst such books may open up BDSM possibilities in the minds of their readers, they also sell a pernicious lie about what type of life might be most rewarding. If what I have heard about FSoG is right for example, the heroine is in no way valued as a person, for her individuality, her skills, knowledge, because she is not allowed to express them, all depends on her master. And he, presumably, therefore chooses her on the basis of another criterion: her looks. Oh how amazingly transformative, how liberating! Look gorgeous and you too can have a wonderful sex-life. A life in which you can completely change all your values, and transform from virginal to sex-seeking, breaking all your psychological structures regarding the world and how you relate to it, in really no time at all, with no negative psychological results. Truly Utopian, but rather stretching the required suspension of disbelief.

    I value people as individuals, and my partners for themselves. I like it that way.

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