• Sex Industry Who Exploits Who?

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    flaneur [sign in to see picture]
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    The stereotypical view is that men are the consumers who exploit women whether they are porn stars or prostitutes, or anything else, feminist activists won't mind telling you that. I think that this is flawed on all levels when the workers do so by choice. The fact that women are presented as the suppliers and men are presented as the consumers only seems to typify this. Human trafficking is a different story entirely.

    In countries like Germany and Holland the sex industries are booming. Since such services are legal and the money doesn't end up in the hands of an orgainised crime syndicate, it seems contrary to what feminist preachers say the workers are the ones who are exploiting the customers. They are doing a fine job of convincing people to empty their wallets for their services and the hourly rates aren't anything to be sniffed at either.

    Back to the subject of trafficking, the effect of the german reform 11 years ago can be seen here.http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/germany/131125/berlin-sex-workers-prostitution-law

    So what do you think? As far as the opinion on the sex industry goes, who do you think is in the wrong, if anyone.

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    mrbigpackage [sign in to see picture]
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    i dont think anyones in the wrong its there choice to go down that route

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    kc. [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm definitely being exploited. I keep spending money.

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    Strange Days [sign in to see picture]
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    I don't have a problem with this. Wish it would be fully legalised in the UK, but its OK as it is, really. Its only soliciting which is illegal, AFAIK,

    You pay for time and a 'service', be that what it may - just sex, or more than that. In the same way, you pay some one to fix your car. Much the same, but having you car fixed isn't as much fun.... :-)

    I don't think anyone is exploited, provided the lady is an 'independant'. If she is working in a massage parlour, it could be different.

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    This is a topic that I have embarrassingly little knowledge on. However, I feel that there are many sex workers who do what they do because THEY choose it and enjoy their work. I also think they can be put into dangerous situations due to the nature of the law. (How can they protect themselves if there is a lack of safe place and if what they do is illegal, how can they complain if they are assaulted etc) As I say, I don't have enough knowledge.

    One thing though..It is unfair label everyone who thinks women are being exploited in the industry, as "feminists" or "feminist preachers" That is kinda like saying "all homosexuals are against," or "all polititions think" or "all Christians will" There is a broad range of opinion (even among feminists) on every subject and I was just reading a wonderful blog last week from a self confessed "feminist" who was saying sex workers need support and to be able to work safely, wthout fear. In other words, not all feminists are man hating stereotype activists and some follow the opinion of supporting women in what THEY choose to do (Sex work included) but offering support and help, rather than turning our backs and leaving these people in danger) If that makes sense?

    Who do I think is in the wrong? Anyone (Male or female) who forces another person against their will (Threats or violence etc) do do something that that person does not want to do.

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    Strange Days [sign in to see picture]
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    @Fluffbags - Don't think having sex is yet illegal....!! Its soliciting which is. But the safety aspect is very valid. Only taking booking thru sites which have a reference system, is one way to address this.

    Forcing anyone to do this is wrong - wrong - wrong. Definitely.

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    Cyklon wrote:

    @Fluffbags - Don't think having sex is yet illegal....!! Its soliciting which is. But the safety aspect is very valid. Only taking booking thru sites which have a reference system, is one way to address this.

    Forcing anyone to do this is wrong - wrong - wrong. Definitely.

    See! I told you I had embarrassingly little knowledge lol.

    So, the actual sex is legal, but soliciting is illegal...erm, I am just confused as to how they can get to the sex part without the soliciting part. Am I being completely dumb?

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    flaneur [sign in to see picture]
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    Fluffbags wrote:

    One thing though..It is unfair label everyone who thinks women are being exploited in the industry, as "feminists" or "feminist preachers" That is kinda like saying "all homosexuals are against," or "all polititions think" or "all Christians will"

    I really don't see how my post contains anything close to the generalisiing that you're suggesting here. The majority of outspoken opponents to the sex industry are in fact feminists.

    Prostitution itself isn't illegal, but it is blanketted by so many other laws that it might as well be. Attempting to pick up prostitutes in a public place is, using services of someone under 18 (not 16) is, using services of someone who's been coerced is illegal (regardless of whether this was know or not,) running a brothel is. Basically this part of the sex industry is underground and barely regulated.

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    MissTig [sign in to see picture]
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    According to Wiki: In the United Kingdom, Prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal, but a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, Kerb crawling, owning or managing a Brothel, Pimping and Pandering, are crimes.

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    sweetlove666 [sign in to see picture]
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    flaneur wrote:

    The stereotypical view is that men are the consumers who exploit women whether they are porn stars or prostitutes, or anything else, feminist activists won't mind telling you that. I think that this is flawed on all levels when the workers do so by choice. The fact that women are presented as the suppliers and men are presented as the consumers only seems to typify this. Human trafficking is a different story entirely.

    yes, cause all feminists are nasty penis hating harpies never mind that the majority of feminists are actually sex positive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

    most feminists who are against sex work tend to focus on those who are forced into it, or illegally trafficked, or exploited when they are children. I think this is something that everyone does not like about the sex industry, not just those who identify as feminists. Feminists are generally more motivated than others to speak out about it though.

    And yes, men are more traditionally painted as consumers simply because men are usually the customers Females who buy sexual services often do so in a different way that's more clandestine

    There does need to be reform within the UK though. it would certainly help those who do work in the sex industry acess services that can help them (such as medical testing, police support if violence is an issue) However the UK probably won't be changing the laws any time soon

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    Curly Wurly [sign in to see picture]
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    There is a broad spectrum of prostitutes/sex workers to look at.

    A drug addict who sees prostitution as the only option who has to walk the streets alone is being exploited, as with some help they could go through breaking the habit and get a less dangerous job.

    But then you have establishments (I've seen something about 'massage parlours' in Australia) where the company is very high class and all patrons must be put through a genital inspection and then a shower before they are even allowed to see any of the workers. For these people their work is pretty much safe as there are stringent rules to follow to ensure safety. And the people that worked their seemed to all be well educated and had no problems such as addiction in their home life, they were all there by choice. These people I don't see as being exploited.

    As in most things, it depends.

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    flaneur wrote:

    Fluffbags wrote:

    One thing though..It is unfair label everyone who thinks women are being exploited in the industry, as "feminists" or "feminist preachers" That is kinda like saying "all homosexuals are against," or "all polititions think" or "all Christians will"

    I really don't see how my post contains anything close to the generalisiing that you're suggesting here. The majority of outspoken opponents to the sex industry are in fact feminists.

    Prostitution itself isn't illegal, but it is blanketted by so many other laws that it might as well be. Attempting to pick up prostitutes in a public place is, using services of someone under 18 (not 16) is, using services of someone who's been coerced is illegal (regardless of whether this was know or not,) running a brothel is. Basically this part of the sex industry is underground and barely regulated.

    I guess because the laws in this country are not set up by feminist preachers (So we can't exactly lay the blame on them for the rules ofc) and there are many other groups of people (politicians, non-feminist women, men, religious groups etc) who also have strong opinions on this subject. (Even on the forum here) so I guess what I meant to say was that, in my opinion, it is not just "outspoken feminists" that hold the opinion you put forth, so to mention them twice (But no other group of people) seemed like you were generalising, to me anyway. That opinion could well be a minority opinion within that group. ( I am pretty sure not all feminists hold that view, just like not all politicians do) I would of left the word "feminist" out of it altogether and just said "People" but that's just me being PC and as I say, i do not have enough knowledge on the subject of feminism or prostitution to debate with you over whether it is JUST a feminist opinion, despite what i suspect. So I shall trust that you know what you are talking about. (Or agree to disagree lol)

    This is a really interesting thread and I look forward to hearing peoples opinions.

    1386452479
    flaneur [sign in to see picture]
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    sweetlove666 wrote:

    yes, cause all feminists are nasty penis hating harpies never mind that the majority of feminists are actually sex positive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

    I don't know what you've been reading, but it's not needed here.

    most feminists who are against sex work tend to focus on those who are forced into it, or illegally trafficked, or exploited when they are children. I think this is something that everyone does not like about the sex industry, not just those who identify as feminists. Feminists are generally more motivated than others to speak out about it though.

    That's the people they use as examples to justify their campaigns but they generally push for bans on sex work closer to home. A lot of them also have a big problem with masturbation, which if I'm not mistaken is a big part of what this forum is about.

    Curly Wurly wrote:

    A drug addict who sees prostitution as the only option who has to walk the streets alone is being exploited, as with some help they could go through breaking the habit and get a less dangerous job.

    That's interesting, that's the very point where I see the law as denying the woman a chance to earn a living. It would depend on the alternative less dangerous job.

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    sweetlove666 [sign in to see picture]
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    flaneur wrote:

    sweetlove666 wrote:

    yes, cause all feminists are nasty penis hating harpies never mind that the majority of feminists are actually sex positive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism

    I don't know what you've been reading, but it's not needed here.

    most feminists who are against sex work tend to focus on those who are forced into it, or illegally trafficked, or exploited when they are children. I think this is something that everyone does not like about the sex industry, not just those who identify as feminists. Feminists are generally more motivated than others to speak out about it though.

    That's the people they use as examples to justify their campaigns but they generally push for bans on sex work closer to home. A lot of them also have a big problem with masturbation, which if I'm not mistaken is a big part of what this forum is about.

    sorry, but who? "they" can justify anyone and please cite your references on masturbation? i know of no feminist writer who says this. I thnink you are sadly mis informed on what feminisim is.

    and i've been reading what youve said - that feminists are all anti sex industry. I am simply stating they are not and giving you information to back up my point. sorry if it's not "needed" here

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    Strange Days [sign in to see picture]
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    Fluffbags wrote:

    Cyklon wrote:

    @Fluffbags - Don't think having sex is yet illegal....!! Its soliciting which is. But the safety aspect is very valid. Only taking booking thru sites which have a reference system, is one way to address this.

    Forcing anyone to do this is wrong - wrong - wrong. Definitely.

    See! I told you I had embarrassingly little knowledge lol.

    So, the actual sex is legal, but soliciting is illegal...erm, I am just confused as to how they can get to the sex part without the soliciting part. Am I being completely dumb?

    Hehe - no prob. I have some knowledge.... !! So, street walking is illegal, but having an individual internet site isn't - or having a listing on large site isn't (LH rules prevent me from naming such a site - but there are several). So, the 'punter' can make contact thru the internet - or mobile phone - and make a booking. Simples. Then - as long as he turns up - the sex part can follow - but any payment isn't for sex - its for 'companionship'. The punter not turning up can be a problem, clearly. Hence refs are good - or actually talking on the phone before booking.

    OK..?

    1386454294
    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    Feminism: "A collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing and defending equal political, economic and social rights for women

    Misandry: "A hatred of men or boys."

    Two very different things that seem to get confused often. It's almost like saying "Corrr these womenz who want equal rights...they must hate men" Is it a threat or something? :D

    Seeing as there is no "qualification" to be a feminist, anyone can label themselves as feminists (Even men) but if those people actually just hate men, I think it is fair to say you have bumped into a woman who is actually the second, but calls herself the first. Yes it is possible to be both, but I would not say "The vast majority" nor would I rule out an entire group of people for the good they aim to do, based on a few extremists (Of which, you would find in any group anyway, because we are so diverse.)

    The problem with extremists, is that their loud voices and off the wall behaviour makes its way to the forefront (In the papers, on the news etc) and becomes the stereotype for that group of people. I think we all know that if something is in the news...its probably because its unusual or extreme. Certainly not the norm

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    Cyklon wrote:

    Fluffbags wrote:

    Cyklon wrote:

    @Fluffbags - Don't think having sex is yet illegal....!! Its soliciting which is. But the safety aspect is very valid. Only taking booking thru sites which have a reference system, is one way to address this.

    Forcing anyone to do this is wrong - wrong - wrong. Definitely.

    See! I told you I had embarrassingly little knowledge lol.

    So, the actual sex is legal, but soliciting is illegal...erm, I am just confused as to how they can get to the sex part without the soliciting part. Am I being completely dumb?

    Hehe - no prob. I have some knowledge.... !! So, street walking is illegal, but having an individual internet site isn't - or having a listing on large site isn't (LH rules prevent me from naming such a site - but there are several). So, the 'punter' can make contact thru the internet - or mobile phone - and make a booking. Simples. Then - as long as he turns up - the sex part can follow - but any payment isn't for sex - its for 'companionship'. The punter not turning up can be a problem, clearly. Hence refs are good - or actually talking on the phone before booking.

    OK..?

    Makes sense to me! lol Thanks xx

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    flaneur [sign in to see picture]
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    sweetlove666 wrote:

    sorry, but who? "they" can justify anyone and please cite your references on masturbation? i know of no feminist writer who says this. I thnink you are sadly mis informed on what feminisim is.

    and i've been reading what youve said - that feminists are all anti sex industry. I am simply stating they are not and giving you information to back up my point. sorry if it's not "needed" here

    Calm down I know this is a touchy subject. If you want to know someone seriously against masturbation you have Christine O Donnell. If you want to argue about her being a feminist http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/tpm-s-top-ten-quotes-from-christine-o-donnell-the-woman-who-s-against-everything.

    I didn't say all feminists were anti sex industry. I said the most outspoken opponents were. There is a difference.

    Cyklon wrote:

    Hehe - no prob. I have some knowledge.... !! So, street walking is illegal, but having an individual internet site isn't - or having a listing on large site isn't (LH rules prevent me from naming such a site - but there are several). So, the 'punter' can make contact thru the internet - or mobile phone - and make a booking. Simples. Then - as long as he turns up - the sex part can follow - but any payment isn't for sex - its for 'companionship'. The punter not turning up can be a problem, clearly. Hence refs are good - or actually talking on the phone before booking.

    OK..?

    That sounds like my interpretation of the law.

    To be fair to both sides of the argument, legalising prostitution in Holland has had its consequences. In Germany though things seem to have worked out better.

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    Fluffbags [sign in to see picture]
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    Lol! I can't be involved in this conversation anymore. First feminism gets attacked (When i see no real legit reason for it being part of the actual discussion - eg the law in this country surrounding prositiution vs other countries) and then when people defend feminism, or have an opposing view, they get told to "calm down" (Sweetlove, you said nothing ragey as far as I read it x) or that their opinion isnt needed, or that we misunderstand. I don't think I misunderstood and I am just personally irked about where the blame is being laid.

    Then a comment about feminists being anti masturbation???

    Shush Fluffbags...shhhhh!

    I ....just.....lol!

    I will probably end up ranting and derailing this thread, so I am out now lol

    have fun! :D

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    LilMissFrustrated [sign in to see picture]
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    I thought the answer was pimps and human traffickers with maybe a drug dealer or two on the side but then I read the posts and got completely lost.

    The question is sex industry who exploits who.....Erm right?

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