• Annual negotiations - need help

    1356742951
    cappy [sign in to see picture]
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    i do feel for you. to some degree i was in the same boat.

    me and mrs cappy had been together 20 years when i said enough was enough and walked out of the door. this after many many years of trying and asking etc.

    at that point she realised she had a problem and tnat the time for compromise had passed and we'd lost the marriage.

    hats off to her though, she went for counselling to,put some demons to bed, she put what she wanted out of life and love into order and in her words became the girl she always wanted to be in and out of the bedroom.

    through all this we managed to stay friends and slowly the trust and faith began to return and whi,st theynsay a leopard can't ch age it's spots with counselling and help mrs cappy did.

    two years ago on would have been our anniversaryi decided to take the plunge and ask her did she want us to get back together or should we go for divorce. she jumped at the chance, we went to italy and have had the bestbtwo years of ourmarriage since then.

    people can ch age but they have to want to, if she hadn't changed then as much as i love her the divorce would have gone ahead

    1356744723

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    jaycloth wrote:

    Help. Please. It's New Year, and negotiations will probably start tonight or tomorrow.

    I presumeit wasnt like this at the start, tomeliving together is like a contractoflife. You cant just fundamentally change it as you like. I think you need to talk...a lot. maybe she has esteem issues,ormaybe confidence issues....

    good luck anyway...no way wouldI put up with that for 13 yrs.

    1356795804
    jaycloth [sign in to see picture]
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    Thanks, especially Cappy.

    Didn't have the long conversation last night. We watched Homeland instead.

    I suppose the problem is that it's a stalemate. I don't want out, I couldn't live without our children, I probably couldn't live without my wife.

    1356795962
    Cat Lady [sign in to see picture]
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    Have you ever asked her why she's not interested in sex?

    1356796484
    scarab9 [sign in to see picture]
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    Sounds rough. Not sure there's anything you can do in that situation but couple of things from what you've written -

    1/ you mention things you want to do that she thinks are perverse. What about just very 'normal' sex? Is she interested in that our just doing it to keep you happy? If she's interested, just not in stuff you are then that's very didn't from if she is experiencing no sex drive. I've assumed the latter so if wrong ignore the rest...

    2/ if she has no sex drive then have you asked what she wants or why she thinks she doesn't want any sex? Be sensitive there, it can be a painful question to try and Answer and it may be distressing her as much as you.

    3/ the above may give an idea if she wants to change. If she doesn't then you're out of luck, but if she would like to feel an interest then lots of talking might help but may be better from a councillor.

    4/ May be worth thinking about whether it's related to the birth control pill she's on if she's on one

    1356796589
    scarab9 [sign in to see picture]
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    Cappy - that story made me smile

    1356797321
    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    It is hard; the power generally sits with the person who wants least. You have no leverage, and even if you did, if you are coercing her in to it the trust would be even less.

    Maybe you should just say to her you would like to continue on this what you agreed last year and try the getting her slightly more naked again. Further to that I would say that if you want to stay and she doesn't want to change you should stop asking/begging etc as this will just be creating unnecessary stress in the marriage. Lay your cards on the table. Tell her how you feel and that you would like her to try for you, but that you are not going to constantly mention it this year. Perhaps if you remove this conflict from the equation you can start building some trust around the issue that will encourage her to be more open in the long run.

    TBH if she knows that you would not leave her over the issue then she has no reason to change, and if she knows you would leave her over it, then she would have to choose. Unfortunately this doesn't mean she would choose you.

    1356801688
    jaycloth [sign in to see picture]
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    scarab9 wrote:

    Sounds rough. Not sure there's anything you can do in that situation but couple of things from what you've written -

    1/ you mention things you want to do that she thinks are perverse. What about just very 'normal' sex? Is she interested in that our just doing it to keep you happy? If she's interested, just not in stuff you are then that's very didn't from if she is experiencing no sex drive. I've assumed the latter so if wrong ignore the rest...

    2/ if she has no sex drive then have you asked what she wants or why she thinks she doesn't want any sex? Be sensitive there, it can be a painful question to try and Answer and it may be distressing her as much as you.

    3/ the above may give an idea if she wants to change. If she doesn't then you're out of luck, but if she would like to feel an interest then lots of talking might help but may be better from a councillor.

    4/ May be worth thinking about whether it's related to the birth control pill she's on if she's on one

    Thanks again

    1. Like I said, I'm not sure she actually believes these things are perverse. She's not a Puritan or anything, but there's no downside to her slinging perjoratives around. Her answer to everything is "I just don't like it." or "I just don't want to" and there's no discussion to be had after that.

    2. We have sex relatively frequently. Sometimes most nights a week, sometimes once a week; you know modern life and all. I do get the idea that most of the time she just does it to please me, but that's as far as she's willing to go.

    3. If she wants to change, I would be absolutely flabbergasted. Anything is possible, but I doubt it. It comes across to me as a combination of laziness and over-comfort. She would be very upset if I asked her if that were the case, but like I say - anything is possible.

    4. I thought it might be the pill, but when she's been off the pill, I don't recall things changing much. Having said that, she concieved very quickly with both our children (within a month) so it's actually difficult to say.

    1356802850
    jaycloth [sign in to see picture]
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    Ok, read back stuff from the beginning. I'm a bit confused myself now.

    Who thinks I'm being selfish or asking too much? Maybe it could be so much worse.

    This is what it's like:

    We have sex relatively often. Sometimes every day, usually 3-4 times a week.

    Sex is always in missionary or reverse missionary position.

    As far as I am aware, she has never had a orgasm.

    She refuses oral sex on herself.

    For about 10 years, she flat out refused to give blowjobs. They are in at the moment, maybe once or twice a week. They last between 10 seconds and a minute. She insists on hiding her head under the covers when she does it (although it's dark anyway) I think this is so that they can't go on too long as she'll get too hot and stuffy.

    She doesn't like masturbation, and tends to clamp her legs really tightly shut when being touched.

    She has a very strong library of mood-killers which she employs all the time. Before giving head, she will always demand "have you washed?" even though she knows I was in the shower five minutes ago. She also says stuff like "get on with it, then".

    In a sense, I suppose I am quite lucky that there is sex, and I'm sure some men (husbands) have not had oral sex at all in many years. It's not about frequency - so much as a really bad and negative attitude. Sex might be frequent, but it's almost as if she goes out of her way to make it unenjoyable - not about love or even sex, but she tries very hard to turn it into a tedious chore.

    1356803755
    Cat Lady [sign in to see picture]
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    Ok here's an idea. What if you suggested it be less frequent but the 2 of you take more time when it does happen? Also, is there a way to associate sex with something she does like, as in positive reinforcement?

    1356814463
    cappy [sign in to see picture]
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    jaycloth wrote:

    Ok, read back stuff from the beginning. I'm a bit confused myself now.

    Who thinks I'm being selfish or asking too much? Maybe it could be so much worse.

    This is what it's like:

    We have sex relatively often. Sometimes every day, usually 3-4 times a week.

    Sex is always in missionary or reverse missionary position.

    As far as I am aware, she has never had a orgasm.

    She refuses oral sex on herself.

    For about 10 years, she flat out refused to give blowjobs. They are in at the moment, maybe once or twice a week. They last between 10 seconds and a minute. She insists on hiding her head under the covers when she does it (although it's dark anyway) I think this is so that they can't go on too long as she'll get too hot and stuffy.

    She doesn't like masturbation, and tends to clamp her legs really tightly shut when being touched.

    She has a very strong library of mood-killers which she employs all the time. Before giving head, she will always demand "have you washed?" even though she knows I was in the shower five minutes ago. She also says stuff like "get on with it, then".

    In a sense, I suppose I am quite lucky that there is sex, and I'm sure some men (husbands) have not had oral sex at all in many years. It's not about frequency - so much as a really bad and negative attitude. Sex might be frequent, but it's almost as if she goes out of her way to make it unenjoyable - not about love or even sex, but she tries very hard to turn it into a tedious chore.

    I don't think you are being selfish at all JC. Your post above was even more deja vu and I really feel for you.

    I used to get it as often as I wanted and whilst it was a release it wasn't satisfying - sex without emotion isn't fun and sex without the other enjoying it or participating made me feelmlike a rapist at times. I never took her against her vwill btw just how I felt afterwards.

    So just becuase you're getting lots of sex doesn't stop the "I wish there was more feeling / particpation / emotion" thoughts. And it sticks!

    Blow jobs were very hit and miss in frequency - it got to the point where she would stop every few seconds to wipe off precum...passion killer. Turning back as soon as she got in bed was a major killer too.

    Mrs Cappy never had an orgasm prior to our break up.

    All I can say JC is there has to be a want for change on her part - you hold the key (hate to say upper hand cos it's not) on that. If she won't go to counselling now, without or without you, and flat out refuses to change then you have to make the choice. Stay or leave.
    If you decide leave then you have a further choice - support from a distance and keep an open mind on getting back together or make a clean break. You have two kids involved....we had our wonderful daughter - it is a heartbreaking process for all, especially the kids.
    Perhaps the "threat" of leaving the family home might be enougb to even get her to consider counselling - once the thought process is there it can be worked on.

    All I can say is lots of sex doesn't mean happy and satisfying sex.

    If you decide to try and work and negotiate throug this at home then I'd seriosuly suggest counselling anyway - even if it is just for you! Might let you put things into pockets in your head and perhaps come up with a few plans / ideas.

    Don't start on putting things into play now. This is a shit time of year with all its attendant stresses anyway. Park it up until New year.

    It can be solved and things can get better.

    1356814579
    cappy [sign in to see picture]
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    Thanks Scarab, some things can work out in life

    1356892747
    jaycloth [sign in to see picture]
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    ***UPDATE***

    Ok - been up all night having the Middle East peace summit.

    Decided not to have the annual horse-trading, but instead look for a long term solution (again).

    Won't bore you with the mechanics, but for those of you who fancy a giggle - this was the outcome:

    - no more lingerie, especially stockings and suspender belts. Naked is the way forward

    -no more crap jokes

    -no more asking/begging, no more refusing

    -no swallowing or cumming in mouth

    -cum anywhere outside except face

    -go to bed earlier so there's more time

    -no complaining about the duration of blowjobs

    -more positions including 69 and oral both ways.

    Should be happy, right? Well, I'll be optimistic, but there have been many, many, many false dawns before - but let's hope.

    1356894370
    Georgina71 [sign in to see picture]
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    Good luck, jaycloth, hope this works out. Otherwise, counseling seems like the way to go.

    1356894809
    cappy [sign in to see picture]
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    I'd still say counselling even with thi splan in place...even if it just for you. Will pay dividends in the end.

    Really hope it works out for you JC

    1356897694
    Gyrator53 [sign in to see picture]
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    Let me add one more vote in favour of counselling. I hope this plan works out well for you. If it doesn't then I think you have really reached the point of counselling. Perhaps it would be worth saying (if you start to get a bit of a wobble with the current agreement) that counselling is your next step.

    BTW - I didn't think either of us would have been able to discuss our sex life with a stranger but once you start it becomes easy.

    1356900125
    Strange Days [sign in to see picture]
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    Try conselling by all means. It might work for you. You certainly need to do something.

    I am in a similar situation, but worse. Effectively a dead relationship - which IMO died because of similar problems to those you have describe. Ending in zero sex - for 5+ years.

    You need to get it fixed - within the next year, definitely. Othewise you simply end it. Sorry to be so blunt, but that is my advice.

    Sex is suppossed to be fun - the best fun you can have...! Not something for negotiations. No one deserves that.

    I am looking at separation & divorce.

    1357081162
    uxo [sign in to see picture]
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    Man... I don't know what to say other than I feel for you and all the best with the new agreement!

    1357083377
    KinkyFuckery [sign in to see picture]
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    Good luck enjoy it and try not to put pressure on yourselves x

    1357086767
    atlanta [sign in to see picture]
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    It sounds as if your partner has established certain beliefs at a certain stage in her life and is not prepared to diverge from them. May I ask if you ever had a more complete sexual relationshiP with her at any stage of your relationship.

    Things come to mind such as is she religious, or has she ever been abused, has there been some sort of other traumatic event that might have affected her feelings about sex or you?

    Do you have children?

    Does she have friends (other women I mean)?

    This does seem to be an awkward situation, but I think you should seek professional help. A professional may be able to suggest strategies to draw her into a dialogue with another professional.

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