• Jim Jefferies and sex

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    ShaftMaster wrote:

    I can understand if you found it offensive, but I don't see how making a joke about women looking in pain is perpetuating rape culture???

    If someone in the audience believes it when he says a partner should look like they're in pain, then they're gonna believe that anyway, whether they hear it from a stand up comic or not. Succesful stand up comics might have a celebrity status that allows them to be influential, but they don't determine peoples morality.

    They don't, but it does desensitise people to it a little. In a culture where sex isn't often talked about - and as Gunther said, it's difficult to tell if a pained look is actually because of pain - then it can become problematic. If people are told that sex can look painful and that's fine, and a person is inexperienced it can lead to problems. People can find it difficult to communicate their feelings and if a pained look is then ignored because its normal, a woman could end up having painful, unenjoyable sex. That's not to say the scenario I've described is rape. But it can have damaging effects on both parties. It's easy to see how that could then be amplified in some cases. Not because it makes people who otherwise thought rape was wrong, consider it right, but because it can build this environment where there are acceptable "excuses" for the men who would rape anyway. Especially when at the moment there is a terrible environment of victim blaming when it comes to rape.

    It's a complicated topic, and if worsening it can be avoided then it should. That said, in this case - I think it was a flippant comment and would largely be taken as that, we can't avoid offence always (although if offence isn't necessary for a joke, why not avoid it?) so I wouldn't, personally, think this example perpetuates rape. Just know that it can in some cases :).

    Adx

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    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    I don't think it perpetuates rape any more than say something like 50 shades of grey or going on websites that allow consentual non consent porn, or fetlife which are all in popular media now. Jim Jefferies is in general in the UK an age restricted content.

    I don't see it being any worse that them selling floggers and gags and restraints on lovehoney.

    I have no idea what sweetlove is onabout, is that a different clip? if so then you'll need to say which clip for anyone else to make comment.

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    lilac_vix wrote:

    I don't think it perpetuates rape any more than say something like 50 shades of grey or going on websites that allow consentual non consent porn, or fetlife which are all in popular media now. Jim Jefferies is in general in the UK an age restricted content.

    I don't see it being any worse that them selling floggers and gags and restraints on lovehoney.

    I have no idea what sweetlove is onabout, is that a different clip? if so then you'll need to say which clip for anyone else to make comment.

    Actually from what I've heard of 50 shades, it makes for some pretty nasty reading in terms of consent and domestic abuse but there you go.

    Disagree about floggers et al. I think consent is the key difference - the point SL was making was that by saying pain is inevitable, you're encouraging a person to not actually ask if the pain is ok. Some people enjoy pain during sex but if you remove the choice, you remove the consent and without consent you have rape.

    Adx

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    ShaftMaster [sign in to see picture]
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    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    ShaftMaster wrote:

    I can understand if you found it offensive, but I don't see how making a joke about women looking in pain is perpetuating rape culture???

    If someone in the audience believes it when he says a partner should look like they're in pain, then they're gonna believe that anyway, whether they hear it from a stand up comic or not. Succesful stand up comics might have a celebrity status that allows them to be influential, but they don't determine peoples morality.

    They don't, but it does desensitise people to it a little. In a culture where sex isn't often talked about - and as Gunther said, it's difficult to tell if a pained look is actually because of pain - then it can become problematic. If people are told that sex can look painful and that's fine, and a person is inexperienced it can lead to problems. People can find it difficult to communicate their feelings and if a pained look is then ignored because its normal, a woman could end up having painful, unenjoyable sex. That's not to say the scenario I've described is rape. But it can have damaging effects on both parties. It's easy to see how that could then be amplified in some cases. Not because it makes people who otherwise thought rape was wrong, consider it right, but because it can build this environment where there are acceptable "excuses" for the men who would rape anyway. Especially when at the moment there is a terrible environment of victim blaming when it comes to rape.

    It's a complicated topic, and if worsening it can be avoided then it should. That said, in this case - I think it was a flippant comment and would largely be taken as that, we can't avoid offence always (although if offence isn't necessary for a joke, why not avoid it?) so I wouldn't, personally, think this example perpetuates rape. Just know that it can in some cases :).

    Adx

    I agree that certain topics, like sex, should be talked about more, and I think that stand up comedy is a good way to do that. As for younger and more inexperienced people, I agree that they can be more influenced, which is why as much as I don't agree with censorship, I do completely agree with age ratings, which I admit are always going to be lacking on sites such as youtube. I only hope they come under parental controls as well as well as porn.

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    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, he never mentions non consent and said 'we like it when girls look a bit unconfortable' whilst suggesting the woman should look that way for the pleasure of the man, he doesn't say he wants to 'force' her to do something that will make her look uncomfortable, he suggests she chooses to do it.

    I don't see how lovehoney (as an example) selling floggers promotes consent any more or less than the joke. Nowhere on this page http://www.lovehoney.co.uk/sex-toys/bondage/ or this one http://www.lovehoney.co.uk/product.cfm?p=19604does it EXPLICITLY mention there has to be consent. If you can assume it for one then you can assume it for the other. Any difference in inference is purely from the viewer.

    I do believe 50 shades promotes non consent, that was my point, that it has still become 'accepted' in popular culture.

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    Catastrophic [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm Australian, and pretty embarrased that I share a country with this moron. The swearing did not bother me one bit, I swear like a sailor myself. The content of the routine bothered me a lot. It was not funny at all, it's like he was trying his hardest to be offensive as he could and anyone who doesn't think he's funny doesn't have a sense of humour "I loathe women, isn't that so fucking funny?!" but why should I find misogyny funny? It's not new, it's not original. For thousands of years women were treated as sex objects and even in marriage women's sexual pleasure was of no importance. Jesus Christ still today women are made to feel insecure when it comes to sex.

    He's not only being sexist towards women treating them as holes that should get themselves wet so men can enjoy sex, hell it even helps if they look like they are in pain while they're being used. But he's being sexist towards men, by stereotyping them as uncaring, lazy lust driven creatures, the thing is that ignores that plenty of men do need and enjoy foreplay.

    I haven't even heard of this comedian before so I had no preconceived ideas about him before watching the video, but I did not even crack a smile once during the 8mins. But to answer your questions:
    Is it the woman’s responsibilities to get wet? They have equal responsibility if you want the sex to be enjoyable for both people.
    Do men really not like foreplay? I'm sure there are men who don't just like there are women who don't. But I know for a fact that my OH enjoys it, and he gets an accomplished little grin when he sees how much he's turning me on. Plus the anticipation adds to the satisfaction later ;)
    Does this kind of humour send the wrong message about sex? Yes.

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    ShaftMaster [sign in to see picture]
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    Catastrophic wrote:

    He's not only being sexist towards women treating them as holes that should get themselves wet so men can enjoy sex, hell it even helps if they look like they are in pain while they're being used. But he's being sexist towards men, by stereotyping them as uncaring, lazy lust driven creatures, the thing is that ignores that plenty of men do need and enjoy foreplay.

    To me, this is one reason I didn't find it offensive, by being 'sexist' to both men and women, he was making things equal, so that he wasn't necessarily picking on one or the other, and therefore wasn't (the way I see it) sexist.

    If you want to laugh at anyone, you have to laugh at yourself first, which in this video he does.

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    Catastrophic [sign in to see picture]
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    It seemed unintentional the way he did it. He also wasn't equally sexist, his message was that men were better because it's easier for them to have sex. The sexism against men was a byproduct of the misogynistic routine.

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    lilac_vix wrote:

    I do believe 50 shades promotes non consent, that was my point, that it has still become 'accepted' in popular culture.

    Just because something is accepted, doesn't mean it isn't damaging. I don't like that the book becomes synonymous with a healthy sex life - I think any person or group working *for* healthy and open sex lives should disociate themselves from that book. I don't think the book should be banned - neither do I think the comedian should be punished. As I said he's just *not* funny because, as Catastrophic said, the joke is the offense, not the content. IMO that's lazy comedy. The book is an entirely different matter - I think you mentioned it because how could someone condone one and not the other. Well I condone neither.

    I'm only suggesting how something can be taken in a way that may promote poor responses in people - I don't actually agree with SL in this case; but I can see the point she is making and I think she got jumped on a little too quickly. There is no harm discussing both sides of the coin :).

    Adx

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    shellyboo [sign in to see picture]
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    Is it the womans responsibilities to get wet?

    I don't think you can be 'responsible' for something you don't have any control over...

    Do men really not like foreplay?

    Selfish men who are bad in bed probably don't like foreplay. I have never been with a man who didn't enjoy seeing his partner get turned on... maybe I've just been lucky? But I would not continue to sleep with a guy whose idea of a good time was sticking it in and getting off regardless of my enjoyment, hesitation, consent, or pain. In fact, I'm pretty sure we have a word for that.

    Does this kind of humour send the wrong message about sex?

    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. It's lazy, unfunny, misogynistic, and as SL said, it perpetuates the rape culture. As if society needs more venues in which rape/abuse/misogyny is not taken seriously.

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    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    lilac_vix wrote:

    I don't think it perpetuates rape any more than say something like 50 shades of grey or going on websites that allow consentual non consent porn, or fetlife which are all in popular media now. Jim Jefferies is in general in the UK an age restricted content.

    I don't see it being any worse that them selling floggers and gags and restraints on lovehoney.

    I have no idea what sweetlove is onabout, is that a different clip? if so then you'll need to say which clip for anyone else to make comment.

    Actually from what I've heard of 50 shades, it makes for some pretty nasty reading in terms of consent and domestic abuse but there you go.

    Disagree about floggers et al. I think consent is the key difference - the point SL was making was that by saying pain is inevitable, you're encouraging a person to not actually ask if the pain is ok. Some people enjoy pain during sex but if you remove the choice, you remove the consent and without consent you have rape.

    Adx

    The point was he never said there is no consent, by not clearly stating 'you must gain consent to use this product with another' LH are petpetuating rape if you are saying that by not asking you are removing the choice, or by only implying by selling the product that its use is ok, so I think it is the perfect parrallel. He never says pain is inevitable he said I like it when women look uncomfortable. He says they actually have to be just, just to look that way.

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    ShaftMaster [sign in to see picture]
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    lilac_vix wrote:

    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    lilac_vix wrote:

    I don't think it perpetuates rape any more than say something like 50 shades of grey or going on websites that allow consentual non consent porn, or fetlife which are all in popular media now. Jim Jefferies is in general in the UK an age restricted content.

    I don't see it being any worse that them selling floggers and gags and restraints on lovehoney.

    I have no idea what sweetlove is onabout, is that a different clip? if so then you'll need to say which clip for anyone else to make comment.

    Actually from what I've heard of 50 shades, it makes for some pretty nasty reading in terms of consent and domestic abuse but there you go.

    Disagree about floggers et al. I think consent is the key difference - the point SL was making was that by saying pain is inevitable, you're encouraging a person to not actually ask if the pain is ok. Some people enjoy pain during sex but if you remove the choice, you remove the consent and without consent you have rape.

    Adx


    The point was he never said there is no consent, by not clearly stating 'you must gain consent to use this product with another' LH are petpetuating rape if you are saying that by not asking you are removing the choice, or by only implying by selling the product that its use is ok, so I think it is the perfect parrallel. He never says pain is inevitable he said I like it when women look uncomfortable. He says they actually have to be just, just to look that way.

    In terms of the joke on the clip, he did say about women "looking" like they are uncomfortable, not "being" uncomfortable, to which there is a big difference. During sex couples will often play to people's fantasies. If I dress up in a uniform, it does not mean I am employeed in that position.

    Although I'm not quite sure what you are saying about "by not clearly stating 'you must gain consent to use this product with another' LH are petpetuating rape".

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    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    Catastrophic wrote:

    For thousands of years women were treated as sex objects and even in marriage women's sexual pleasure was of no importance. Jesus Christ still today women are made to feel insecure when it comes to sex.

    He's not only being sexist towards women treating them as holes that should get themselves wet so men can enjoy sex, hell it even helps if they look like they are in pain while they're being used. But he's being sexist towards men, by stereotyping them as uncaring, lazy lust driven creatures, the thing is that ignores that plenty of men do need and enjoy foreplay.

    But in many cases the sex has become the responsibilitly of the man entirely and women are failing to take responsibility for themselves. So women don't like it if the man say's so why aren't you wet thats your job but will equallythey would do the same thing to a man, why aren't you hard? there must be something wrong with you if you're not, it can't be me. Maybe hes mirroring how a lot of women do act?

    He does actually have a routine about having to fake orgasm because he can't come as much as he used to, and one where he says "it's not funny for all you women to wiggle your little finger when I walk past, I KNOW how big my dick is I've measured it. I bet non of you truely know how big your (c word) is. How would you like it if I did this when you walk past -cups his hands to his face and blows-

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    ShaftMaster [sign in to see picture]
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    lilac_vix wrote:

    He does actually have a routine about having to fake orgasm because he can't come as much as he used to, and one where he says "it's not funny for all you women to wiggle your little finger when I walk past, I KNOW how big my dick is I've measured it. I bet non of you truely know how big your (c word) is. How would you like it if I did this when you walk past -cups his hands to his face and blows-

    This is another important thing that some people often when criticising stand up comedy routines/tv programmes/films in terms of sex/violence, etc.

    The clip posted was just one joke from a whole set, and can be taken out of context of the routine as a whole.

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    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    Wow. When criticising someone you should read carefully.

    ShaftMaster *I* didn't say anything about it perpetuating rape culture, merely suggesting how another poster may have come to that conclusion.

    Also I've already explained how merely *looking* in pain can be problematic in our current society where people don't discuss sex in a previous post.

    I'm sorry but if you don't take the time to read and understand what I'm saying then I'm not taking the time to continue this discussion. There was a time when open discussion and debate was really enjoyable on this forum.

    Cheerio.

    1343255328
    lilac_vix [sign in to see picture]
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    ShaftMaster wrote:

    lilac_vix wrote:

    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    lilac_vix wrote:

    I don't think it perpetuates rape any more than say something like 50 shades of grey or going on websites that allow consentual non consent porn, or fetlife which are all in popular media now. Jim Jefferies is in general in the UK an age restricted content.

    I don't see it being any worse that them selling floggers and gags and restraints on lovehoney.

    I have no idea what sweetlove is onabout, is that a different clip? if so then you'll need to say which clip for anyone else to make comment.

    Actually from what I've heard of 50 shades, it makes for some pretty nasty reading in terms of consent and domestic abuse but there you go.

    Disagree about floggers et al. I think consent is the key difference - the point SL was making was that by saying pain is inevitable, you're encouraging a person to not actually ask if the pain is ok. Some people enjoy pain during sex but if you remove the choice, you remove the consent and without consent you have rape.

    Adx


    The point was he never said there is no consent, by not clearly stating 'you must gain consent to use this product with another' LH are petpetuating rape if you are saying that by not asking you are removing the choice, or by only implying by selling the product that its use is ok, so I think it is the perfect parrallel. He never says pain is inevitable he said I like it when women look uncomfortable. He says they actually have to be just, just to look that way.

    Although I'm not quite sure what you are saying about "by not clearly stating 'you must gain consent to use this product with another' LH are petpetuating rape".

    My point was if you can listen to someone saying 'men like it when women look uncomfortable' in a joke and say that it perpetuates rape, because it doesn't discuss consent; then when judging by that same standard, an advert for an item of bdsm kit which doesn't explicity discuss consent when describing its use is also perpetuating rape.

    BWT don't don't think either is true. I was illistrating that when applied to another context the principal behind the assumtion is in my opinion absurd and wrong.

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