• PhilSex (Philosophy of Sex ) - 1. Naughty Pictures

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Mr Monster wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    I am surprised no one has suggested when you take a picture it is joint ownership with the subject yet and trees cannot own stuff...

    I was about to say that! And it would be joint with the owner of the subject - people, of course, own themselves; parents "own" children, etc.

    I think the images in intimate photos where they are given in the context of a relationship should be treated as loans conditional on the continuation of that relationship. They should be taken as placeholders for the subject - a photo of your OH's bum, for example, should be treated with the same degree of privacy as she would treat the real thing. So when you no longer have access to the real thing, the placeholder should be destroyed or returned - it has no legitimate purpose any more.

    Here's a tangent to get you worked up - if someone takes an otherwise innocent photo of you, which they find appeals to a personal fetish, is it still as big an invasion of your privacy? If that photo on the beach had been of the person's feet, say, would she still have been creeped out? Is indecency in the eye of the beholder?

    I'm not sure about the specifics, I think there can be reason to keep pictures after a break up but I think there is something in the major points. There is a distinction to be made, even if only a social one, but I still stick by my language contract theory.

    As for your tangent... If I don't find out, no. There are no objective measures of right or wrong and providing it has no measure on future interactions it plays no part in the the social subjective right/wrong. If I found out then it alters the dynamics, it would then enter my sphere of judgement so I think it would then be wrong 9even if that is contingent on me finding out).

    Moral of the story, don't tell me Mr M about the real reason you're on here late at night and keep calling for 'naked WandA' to be back.

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    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    I just have a thing for navels.... (JOKE! I don't, honest!)

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar. Never had the evil, although it does say something about my feelings for all of those relationships at the time that as it crossed my mind a few times with different partners :s.

    I still have dirty pictures of exes, not for want of having. I'm just a massive computer fiend and I tire of old lives (and machines) quickly, retiring them to subsections of various hard drives where they are forgotten until I eventually back it all up.....every 3 years or so....onto one big hard drive which is probably littered with the hoo hoos and la las over the years.

    Perhaps an interesting take on it. Where do clones fit in this?

    Good point Hella!

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    Paddy89 [sign in to see picture]
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    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar. Never had the evil, although it does say something about my feelings for all of those relationships at the time that as it crossed my mind a few times with different partners :s.

    I still have dirty pictures of exes, not for want of having. I'm just a massive computer fiend and I tire of old lives (and machines) quickly, retiring them to subsections of various hard drives where they are forgotten until I eventually back it all up.....every 3 years or so....onto one big hard drive which is probably littered with the hoo hoos and la las over the years.

    I can't remember where I saw this (could have been on here!), but this artist has recently made a 'Wall of Vaginas'. Not of all the women he's slept with, its just of women of every age, race and creed, to represent female individuality. Your own take on the opposite would be an interesting response!

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Paddy89 wrote:

    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar. Never had the evil, although it does say something about my feelings for all of those relationships at the time that as it crossed my mind a few times with different partners :s.

    I still have dirty pictures of exes, not for want of having. I'm just a massive computer fiend and I tire of old lives (and machines) quickly, retiring them to subsections of various hard drives where they are forgotten until I eventually back it all up.....every 3 years or so....onto one big hard drive which is probably littered with the hoo hoos and la las over the years.

    I can't remember where I saw this (could have been on here!), but this artist has recently made a 'Wall of Vaginas'. Not of all the women he's slept with, its just of women of every age, race and creed, to represent female individuality. Your own take on the opposite would be an interesting response!

    I've posted that before. I've seen a few people do it in various formats.

    http://www.brightonbodycasting.com/design-a-vagina.php

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    Paddy89 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Paddy89 wrote:

    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar. Never had the evil, although it does say something about my feelings for all of those relationships at the time that as it crossed my mind a few times with different partners :s.

    I still have dirty pictures of exes, not for want of having. I'm just a massive computer fiend and I tire of old lives (and machines) quickly, retiring them to subsections of various hard drives where they are forgotten until I eventually back it all up.....every 3 years or so....onto one big hard drive which is probably littered with the hoo hoos and la las over the years.

    I can't remember where I saw this (could have been on here!), but this artist has recently made a 'Wall of Vaginas'. Not of all the women he's slept with, its just of women of every age, race and creed, to represent female individuality. Your own take on the opposite would be an interesting response!

    I've posted that before. I've seen a few people do it in various formats.

    http://www.brightonbodycasting.com/design-a-vagina.php

    That's it. Quite interesting, but you gotta have some balls to ask people to do that!

    Speaking of what's quite interesting, seems like WandA's gonna become a sorta Stephen Fry figure with these debates. Liking it

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    niftyb [sign in to see picture]
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    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar.

    hah...hahahahah.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHH!!!!!

    seriously this had me in stitches for about 20 mins O_o

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    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    LoveHoney - Hella Rouge wrote:

    I went through a phase where I toyed with the idea of using 'clone a willy' on every boyfriend to make some kind of hunting lodge art when I'm an old, spiteful cougar. Never had the evil, although it does say something about my feelings for all of those relationships at the time that as it crossed my mind a few times with different partners :s.

    I still have dirty pictures of exes, not for want of having. I'm just a massive computer fiend and I tire of old lives (and machines) quickly, retiring them to subsections of various hard drives where they are forgotten until I eventually back it all up.....every 3 years or so....onto one big hard drive which is probably littered with the hoo hoos and la las over the years.

    Perhaps an interesting take on it. Where do clones fit in this?

    Good point Hella!

    I think you will have to look at the idea of consent with this. As long as something is consented to, with the persons knowledge, then it is fine. The person has the right to retract that consent at any time, but in a situation like this, to be clear, consent would have to be properly retracted, otherwise it should be assumed that the consent is still there. Itd be hard to pull it off any other way.

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    Phantasma [sign in to see picture]
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    So if person A sends person B a rude picture, or a clone of their willy etc etc then they have consented to person B making whatever use of it they will unless/until person A imposes conditions or formally retracts their consent? Or does the consent have to be given in another form not just assume in the case of handing over the picture?

    Clones.... hmm - I would suggest that they dont. Presuming you mean cloning as in creating another human from your DNA then I would suggest you have no control once the clone reaches a legal age (and level) of maturity. Creating children is using your DNA but you do not 'own them' beyond a certain point i.e. 18 yrs old. So IMO the same would apply to a clone...

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    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    Phantasma wrote:

    So if person A sends person B a rude picture, or a clone of their willy etc etc then they have consented to person B making whatever use of it they will unless/until person A imposes conditions or formally retracts their consent? Or does the consent have to be given in another form not just assume in the case of handing over the picture?

    Clones.... hmm - I would suggest that they dont. Presuming you mean cloning as in creating another human from your DNA then I would suggest you have no control once the clone reaches a legal age (and level) of maturity. Creating children is using your DNA but you do not 'own them' beyond a certain point i.e. 18 yrs old. So IMO the same would apply to a clone...

    I think willingly handing over a picture gives the consent to the person B to use it for their own private use (not public use as that would require further consent through person A as the original rights still remain with A for any further distribution). If person A does not impose any further restrictions then would it not be assumed Person B can keep them even if person A and B are still not together. If person A ever states that they retract consent for person B to own the pictures, then it would only be reasonable for person B to remove the pictures from their property in a sane fashion.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    But can you remove consent? You can't with anything else you own can you? If you give/sell something can you really take something back and under what conditions? Old pressies, engagement rings?

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    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    But can you remove consent? You can't with anything else you own can you? If you give/sell something can you really take something back and under what conditions? Old pressies, engagement rings?

    But photos are entirely different - especially ones of a more private fashion. An old present or engagement ring cannot be embarrassing or even a problem wheras some photos may cause problems if found by the wrong people.

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    Phantasma [sign in to see picture]
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    Why does handing over the picture only mean consent to private use? As WandA has said before the usual structure of relationships would imply that - but if it is not actually said outright can it be considered binding? Why should person A have to consent further? It all comes down to just what the act of giving means to the giver and the receiver....

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    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    Phantasma wrote:

    Why does handing over the picture only mean consent to private use? As WandA has said before the usual structure of relationships would imply that - but if it is not actually said outright can it be considered binding? Why should person A have to consent further? It all comes down to just what the act of giving means to the giver and the receiver....

    Thats true too.... I think photos are rather sensitive things as theyre so private. People should probably lay out what they do not mind the other person doing with said photos before handing them to each other to make sure everyone is clear - but that doesnt always happen unfortunately.

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    BashfulBabe [sign in to see picture]
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    Yeah, I don't think you can remove consent after the fact. You can request that they delete the pictures, but the other person is under no obligation to do so (other than the societal obligation of non-dickishness). Unless you stated when you gave them to them that they were only for their use while part of the relationship, then the giving of them implies indefinite consent.

    The giving of an item without explicit details to the contrary transfers all ownership of the item to the receiver. They're only bound by pre-existing rights, such as IP or copyright, which would bar them from using or sharing the item except under certain conditions, or by specific contracts regarding ownership and/or use as stated clearly at or before the time of giving.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Inara14 wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    But can you remove consent? You can't with anything else you own can you? If you give/sell something can you really take something back and under what conditions? Old pressies, engagement rings?

    But photos are entirely different - especially ones of a more private fashion. An old present or engagement ring cannot be embarrassing or even a problem wheras some photos may cause problems if found by the wrong people.

    But what if a certain present would be embarrassing? A huge 20 inch dildo that you'd rather your mates didn't hear about? It seems fishy to retrospectively apply certain rules no?

    I think the issue is people should reach some form of agreement (however I believe they do although not explicitly) before agreeing to any transaction, but if they don't what is the status quo?

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    Inara14 [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    Inara14 wrote:

    WandA wrote:

    But can you remove consent? You can't with anything else you own can you? If you give/sell something can you really take something back and under what conditions? Old pressies, engagement rings?

    But photos are entirely different - especially ones of a more private fashion. An old present or engagement ring cannot be embarrassing or even a problem wheras some photos may cause problems if found by the wrong people.

    But what if a certain present would be embarrassing? A huge 20 inch dildo that you'd rather your mates didn't hear about? It seems fishy to retrospectively apply certain rules no?

    I think the issue is people should reach some form of agreement (however I believe they do although not explicitly) before agreeing to any transaction, but if they don't what is the status quo?

    I see where you are coming from. I dont mean retroactively change it. I view it as the pictures always being the property of the person who took them/theyre of (in cases like home taken pictures of this kind). And person A is lending them to person B. Using the word 'retract' was my mistake. I think that someone can stop giving consent in this case, so the pictures that person B was allowed to 'borrow' would have to be returned/deleted.

    Not sure about what would happen if there was no agreement in the first place. I think that it would be assumed person B can do whst they want as long as it isnt illegal. As it is person A's responsibility over their own property. Morally person B should obviously be respectful, but they wouldnt have any obligation to.

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Inara14 wrote:

    I see where you are coming from. I dont mean retroactively change it. I view it as the pictures always being the property of the person who took them/theyre of (in cases like home taken pictures of this kind). And person A is lending them to person B. Using the word 'retract' was my mistake. I think that someone can stop giving consent in this case, so the pictures that person B was allowed to 'borrow' would have to be returned/deleted.

    Not sure about what would happen if there was no agreement in the first place. I think that it would be assumed person B can do whst they want as long as it isnt illegal. As it is person A's responsibility over their own property. Morally person B should obviously be respectful, but they wouldnt have any obligation to.

    So if it is a system of lending then what is the cut off point? Does it apply to holiday snaps? Only those embarrassing pics, and if so by the takers or the subject? I asked KP what was so special about appearance that it deserved the person having their photo taken some form of ownership over it, rather then, say, a picture of their cat or Christmas tree?

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    Phantasma [sign in to see picture]
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    BashfulBabe wrote:

    Yeah, I don't think you can remove consent after the fact. You can request that they delete the pictures, but the other person is under no obligation to do so (other than the societal obligation of non-dickishness). Unless you stated when you gave them to them that they were only for their use while part of the relationship, then the giving of them implies indefinite consent.

    The giving of an item without explicit details to the contrary transfers all ownership of the item to the receiver. They're only bound by pre-existing rights, such as IP or copyright, which would bar them from using or sharing the item except under certain conditions, or by specific contracts regarding ownership and/or use as stated clearly at or before the time of giving.

    I think Bashful Babe has it just right there.

    On the point of photos being different to other presents - would you not find that your boyfriend/girlfriend finding out about the engagement ring youd given your ex somewhat embarassing? Or WandA's example of the 20' dildo... almost any gift can potentially be embarassing under the right circumstances and we dont expect to be given back birthday cards we send to the OH with rude stuff in it because their mother read it and mortified you.

    Sure youve been embarrassed but the card is still the property of the OH - not yours. Fundamentally I think its peoples personal insecurity that makes sexy photos a special case. (I dont mean to suggest that anyone on here is insecure in the least - but I think on some level everyone is worried about themselves and how they appear to other people to some extent. Thats what im referring to by 'insecure') Because people are insecure on the subject of ourselved then we want to have a level of control over the distribution of something like that. I would suggest that there is little justification for such a desire beyond our own personal insecurity.

    A varient quesition once again: If you made someone a birthday card which included a naughty picture of you, say one half of the inside. Would you expect/want to get that back in the same way you would want to get a picture back if the two of you broke up/you changed your mind etc etc? Basically is there a level of gift-giving where you would feel you couldnt ask for such a thing back?

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    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Phantasma wrote:

    BashfulBabe wrote:

    Yeah, I don't think you can remove consent after the fact. You can request that they delete the pictures, but the other person is under no obligation to do so (other than the societal obligation of non-dickishness). Unless you stated when you gave them to them that they were only for their use while part of the relationship, then the giving of them implies indefinite consent.

    The giving of an item without explicit details to the contrary transfers all ownership of the item to the receiver. They're only bound by pre-existing rights, such as IP or copyright, which would bar them from using or sharing the item except under certain conditions, or by specific contracts regarding ownership and/or use as stated clearly at or before the time of giving.

    I think Bashful Babe has it just right there.

    On the point of photos being different to other presents - would you not find that your boyfriend/girlfriend finding out about the engagement ring youd given your ex somewhat embarassing? Or WandA's example of the 20' dildo... almost any gift can potentially be embarassing under the right circumstances and we dont expect to be given back birthday cards we send to the OH with rude stuff in it because their mother read it and mortified you.

    Sure youve been embarrassed but the card is still the property of the OH - not yours. Fundamentally I think its peoples personal insecurity that makes sexy photos a special case. (I dont mean to suggest that anyone on here is insecure in the least - but I think on some level everyone is worried about themselves and how they appear to other people to some extent. Thats what im referring to by 'insecure') Because people are insecure on the subject of ourselved then we want to have a level of control over the distribution of something like that. I would suggest that there is little justification for such a desire beyond our own personal insecurity.

    A varient quesition once again: If you made someone a birthday card which included a naughty picture of you, say one half of the inside. Would you expect/want to get that back in the same way you would want to get a picture back if the two of you broke up/you changed your mind etc etc? Basically is there a level of gift-giving where you would feel you couldnt ask for such a thing back?

    I think BB has nailed what many of us would agree with. What we say and what we mean are often very different and it is only based on some notion of shared social convention do we often not bother to express these things.

    As for the new question, I wouldn't ask for anything back anyway I don't think. I'm very much aware that when I hand something over then my influence over it is done with and I have no further 'rights' over it (unless there is something underhand in the transaction). To have further rights would create an discrepancy in my application of a rule, I don't expect to have any say over an object once I've sold it.

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