• Circumicised or not?

    1290728743
    Nymeria [sign in to see picture]
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    Hm, at the end of the day I have found that it has a positive impact on one's life. I understand the reasoning for it not to be done, especially at a younger age. However, I really do see it as being an advantage for it to be done early on and I don't think anything will change my mind, personally. I've never known anyone to see it as a negative attribute to be circumcised.

    Back to the original question- Yes, I prefer it to be circumcised but it was never really an issue with my partner. (He was though).

    I think it also says something even in this thread that circumcision does or even can have a positive effect in the long run. A majority of women seem to prefer it.

    1290729789
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    x X x wrote:

    Hm, at the end of the day I have found that it has a positive impact on one's life. I understand the reasoning for it not to be done, especially at a younger age. However, I really do see it as being an advantage for it to be done early on and I don't think anything will change my mind, personally. I've never known anyone to see it as a negative attribute to be circumcised.

    Noone is trying to change your mind :)

    We're just an open, honest and opinionated bunch.

    Personally - it scares me that so many women prefer it - because for me there's literally nothing (since its a lack of a foreskin) to prefer! The reason it scares me is because it's so engrained in society that this change, this removal, is so acceptable. To remove something you're born with, for me, should be an exception not a rule. The fact there are so many circumcised males astounds me. It's as baffling as if a parent removed a toe from every girl born - it may do absolutely no harm, may even have some benefits, but why would it ever become the norm? If people choose to get circumcised that's fine, but I really do find it odd how normal it is in the Western world.

    Adx

    1290731487
    BashfulBabe [sign in to see picture]
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    Aye, I think that's the big thing: being circumcised certainly shouldn't be seen as a negative thing, but it definitely shouldn't be touted as the next big fashion trend.

    Personally, I prefer uncut, but only on the same level as I prefer filter coffee over instant: I'll drink either and enjoy it, but if I had a choice where all else was equal, I'd take the fresh. Like, I've been with both styles, and did notice a slight difference, but not enough that it'd even cross my mind to care.

    Only hard and fast I'd have is I wouldn't support someone I was with doing it 'for the laugh'. Medical reasons is fine, even confidence or psychological reasons maybe, but definitely not for me, or just because it's the trend.

    1290732655
    Rowan [sign in to see picture]
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    Purely from a practical stance I wish to point out that we speak as people living in (primarily) developed countries, temperate regions, where there is easy access to soaps, good sanitation and an abundance of water, nor are we frequently subject to high temperatures. Taking the US as an anomaly if one considers the distribution of the practice of routine male circumcision it is worth noting that the environmental conditions tend to be very different. Despite the fact it is often perfomed for religious or cultural reasons I suspect it is more practical and genuinely easier to keep clean if water is a valuable commodity, there are no well-stocked, cheap 24 hour tescos with nice, prepackaged soap. Surely it would also be extremely itchy with accumulating sweat, particularly if the soil is also dry. The middle east and much of Africa fit these specifications, so while for us there is no possible excuse for not having a well-kept dick with foreskin there may be other situations in which the practice is useful and resource conserving. In terms of performing the operation in infancy the recovery time is greatly reduced, there are no demands on the child, unlike adults who may easily reopen the wound simply by having to meet responsibilities, blood loss is far less and the wound is very small. On top of which when my brother had his circumcised for medical reasons he was told he couldn't get hard until it healed or the stitches would tear- seriously? How many men could ever meet that condition?!!

    1290732852
    bohohippy [sign in to see picture]
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    I prefer uncut just because I've come into contact with 1 circumcised penis and well, when I tried to 'play', my hand seemed to create a lot of friction, I guess I should of used lube but I like the foreskin :)

    1290734516
    Pixieking [sign in to see picture]
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    Just to say xXx, about their beingno negatives. I shudder at the idea of loosing any of my foreskin. The Idea actually makes me want to cross my legs. My foreskin is literally one of the most important things about my penis to me, because the action it creates when I wank is one of the greatest feelings I get from it. There is also the risk of frenulum damge or romoval, which to me would be one step towards making my penis useless for anything but peeing.

    People who havehad it removed will not have the perspective of having to decide whether they, like me, really enjoy having this little bit of skin.

    1290735296
    Pixieking [sign in to see picture]
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    At the risk of double posting, and major apologies for doing it btw, I forgot to mention another quite important bit of info.

    The practice of routine male circumsicion in the USA is not some sort of ancient rite or ritual, except in the case of those who follow who a religion that practices it. It actually came about because a number of "doctors" and preachers believed that the act of removing the foreskin would discourage masturbation, and therefore keep people pure and on the christian path. Over the years, as people have become more secular, the so called health aspects have been raised, not to highlight how good circumsicion is for you, but to justify the fact that people have been doing it to their kids because that is just the thing that people have apparenty always done. After all, if daddy had it snipped off, why shouldn't junior? After all, it might be a bit cleaner and we wouldn't want our kids getting luaghed at bacause all the other arents were so thoughtful and had their children cut. For most of the people in the usa, unless your parents are jewish or muslim, yor great great great grandads wouldn't have been cut. It's abou 200 years old, max.

    1290737854
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    x X x wrote:

    There are health benefits

    x X x wrote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Medical_aspects - There are conflicting thoughts on this controversial subject.

    Well, having waded my way through those facts and figures, I still would like to know what concrete health benefits you believe are associated with this procedure. About the only clear-cut one (excuse the pun) I could see was the decreased risk of Urinary Tract Infection in those at high risk in the first place. Add to that a decreased incidence of a very rare cancer, and you've pretty much exhausted the agreed-upon benefits. Pretty much everything else showed no clear effect one way or the other. OK, the v-to-p STI transmission rate was lowered in sub-Saharan Africa, but is it really good practice to extrapolate hygeine standards from those studies to Western society? And anyway, safe sex!

    1290738381
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    Mr Monster wrote:

    x X x wrote:

    There are health benefits

    x X x wrote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#Medical_aspects - There are conflicting thoughts on this controversial subject.

    Well, having waded my way through those facts and figures, I still would like to know what concrete health benefits you believe are associated with this procedure. About the only clear-cut one (excuse the pun) I could see was the decreased risk of Urinary Tract Infection in those at high risk in the first place. Add to that a decreased incidence of a very rare cancer, and you've pretty much exhausted the agreed-upon benefits. Pretty much everything else showed no clear effect one way or the other. OK, the v-to-p STI transmission rate was lowered in sub-Saharan Africa, but is it really good practice to extrapolate hygeine standards from those studies to Western society? And anyway, safe sex!

    This certainly isn't a personal response aimed at anyone. I just feel a saying that popped into my head fits concerning circumcision.

    "Amputation is not a cure."

    (I know this isn't the correct application of the given words but I think it highlights the futility of circumcision for health reasons [in 'normal' people])

    1290738477
    chipNroll [sign in to see picture]
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    I like foreskin.

    1290738699
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    chipNroll wrote:

    I like foreskin.

    Keep it simple ey chip?

    1290739160
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    Alicia D'amore wrote:

    Noone is trying to change your mind :)

    Actually, I am.

    Because xXx doesn't seem to realise how important the foreskin can be, I'd like her to think more about it.

    Because she claims health benefits where there is little of consequence, I'd like her to look into it.

    Because the rate of complications from the surgery outweighs the rate of prevention of disease in many cases, I'd really like her to think about why she is so supportive of this practice.

    And if, at the end of the day, it comes down to "well, everyone else is doing it, and anyway it's not my penis" then I'd really, really like her to admit it. It is, after all, her decision, whatever her reasons - for the sake of her children's health, though, I'd like her to be clear with herself on what her reasons are.

    Not sure I can add anything more here.

    All the best,

    MrMr.

    1290739886
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    I do find it quite a sad state of affairs that the value of something I gain so much enjoyment and pleasure from is reduced in equivalence to something little more than a growth that needs removing.

    It's sad to see the sexual pleasure, or even the potential sexual pleasure, of a person reduced simply because somebody wants someone to conform in a certain way. I think to ignore the negative issues around it is such a counter intuitive state of affairs especially on a forum where the importance of sexual pleasure is well understood. No one owns your sexuality but yourself, parents are but custodians.

    I would like advocates to change their minds and although I don't respect the opinion, it lacks rationale and apologist, I respect people have the right to hold it.

    *sigh*

    1290741509
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I would like advocates to change their minds and although I don't respect the opinion, it lacks rationale and apologist, I respect people have the right to hold it.

    Well put. I think in the current social climate we are all so careful about "respecting other people's opinions" that sometimes we forget that it is their right to an opinion that is sacred, not the flavour of that opinion.

    If someone agrees with me, great (normally!). If we disagree about something trivial, fine. If we disagree about something important, also fine. But if it's important, and I think their position on the issue is actually wrong, either morally, factually, or logically, then surely there's nothing wrong in trying to discuss the issue, hopefully getting them to reassess their opinion in the process.

    Yes, sometimes I like to try to change people's minds. Rarely works, though . . .

    1290802837
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    WandA wrote:

    I would like advocates to change their minds and although I don't respect the opinion, it lacks rationale and apologist, I respect people have the right to hold it.

    *sigh*

    I think you've hit the nail on the head really. I don't want to cause arguments 'cause people can believe what they like...however I'm strongly against it and would see it outlawed as anything other than a solution to a medical issue *or* a decision for the person *themselves*, if it were realistic to do so.

    Adx

    1290812856
    Nymeria [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm a little insulted tbh by a number of things.

    I don't understand why there is so much focus on the potential negatives and nothing on the positives.. Surely one looks at both sides? I have found it to have a positive influence on all of those around me, including my OH who is not religious nor has any strong beliefs about it. He is logical.. Read up on it and came to the decision of agreeing to want to circumcise our potential sons.

    I agree there are potential negatives but from my point of view and a majority of others find that the benefits outweighs the risks.. I'm not going to sit here and name them. If you want to find out yourself you can research it but please go ahead and focus on the negatives. I see no end to it here in this thread.

    I'll repeat again how I would want it done to my children with no ill intent. I understand what you mean about consent but frankly I feel like I'd be doing them a favour. As a mother I'd want what's best for my children.

    You may have your own personal beliefs- I have mine. You are strongly against it and I'm for it. I have no problems with discussing but don't try to force your opinions on me. I didn't intend that in my posts- just wanted to give an insight into those that would want it done.

    There have been NO complications around me. Yes, there is potential for it but it has never happened. I think a lot has to do with the expertise of the doctor. We have always had a particular doctor circumcise those in our family; even our extended family. I agree there are people that are rash to get it done with not thinking of the potential consequences, especially on their children. I am not one of them.

    I don't have anything else to really say- if anything I'd just be repeating everything I have said.. I honestly and wholeheartedly believe I will be doing the best for my children and would want them circumcised.

    1290813848
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    My only issues with any of your posts xXx really are these:

    1) you *seem* to be assuming people are ignorant....infact, many of our views are based on very in depth research. To me, there are no quantifiable positives. There may be "feeling" better - but how would a person know they felt *better* had they no recollection of having a foreskin.

    2) you seem to think people are saying you're being intentionally cruel. Noone has said you wish your children ill intent and I don't believe anyone thinks you do.

    I can see MrMs point that he wants you to understand his views, not because he wants to force his opinion on you, but because he feels he ought to at least make sure you have all of the facts when you make a decision on someone else's behalf. No, it's none of our business, but I believe he has the best intentions at heart. Please don't feel offended. Remember you haven't given your own reasons other than that you think there are positives so MrM may feel obliged to make absolutely sure you understand all sides of the story because he doesn't know how much you do know?

    Does that make sense?

    I'm not very good at getting points across sometimes.

    Adx

    1290814281
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    x X x wrote:

    I'm a little insulted tbh by a number of things.

    I don't understand why there is so much focus on the potential negatives and nothing on the positives.. Surely one looks at both sides? I have found it to have a positive influence on all of those around me, including my OH who is not religious nor has any strong beliefs about it. He is logical.. Read up on it and came to the decision of agreeing to want to circumcise our potential sons.

    I agree there are potential negatives but from my point of view and a majority of others find that the benefits outweighs the risks.. I'm not going to sit here and name them. If you want to find out yourself you can research it but please go ahead and focus on the negatives. I see no end to it here in this thread.

    I'll repeat again how I would want it done to my children with no ill intent. I understand what you mean about consent but frankly I feel like I'd be doing them a favour. As a mother I'd want what's best for my children.

    You may have your own personal beliefs- I have mine. You are strongly against it and I'm for it. I have no problems with discussing but don't try to force your opinions on me. I didn't intend that in my posts- just wanted to give an insight into those that would want it done.

    There have been NO complications around me. Yes, there is potential for it but it has never happened. I think a lot has to do with the expertise of the doctor. We have always had a particular doctor circumcise those in our family; even our extended family. I agree there are people that are rash to get it done with not thinking of the potential consequences, especially on their children. I am not one of them.

    I don't have anything else to really say- if anything I'd just be repeating everything I have said.. I honestly and wholeheartedly believe I will be doing the best for my children and would want them circumcised.

    I don't think anyone wants to insult you but that is sometimes an unfortunate consequence of holding a belief or opinion. I find the whole concept of child circumcision a hugely insulting issue, for various reasons from sexism to sadness at the thought of someone losing a part of their anatomy really important to me to someone having their rights violated. That is my take on the subject. As insulted as I find circumcision I respect people have a right to express a similar opinion to yours. I can understand if you feel a bit ganged up on, I really doubt that is anyone's intention, it's just an issue many of us feel strongly about because there really doesn't seem to be any major benefits, despite what you protest and not offer any evidence for.

    I'm really not sure the majority do agree with you either as you've stated a few times. I don't doubt in the slightest you want the best for your child, and I think it's this that upsets many people including me. In mine, and others, opinion your intentions are good but your methods wrong. I find it such a shame you have the best at heart yet express it in that manner. Of course this is only my opinion and I agree it seems unlikely this discussion will go anywhere constructive. I know we disagree on the benefits and negatives but I really do hope you consider all positions fully if you have a baby boy and reach the conclusion it is his decision to make at some point.

    Thank you for providing an honest assessment of your position.

    1290816343
    Nymeria [sign in to see picture]
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    No, I understand. Thank you.

    I have read up on it. I see both sides of this issue. I actually do understand the points they have made but I feel like some are quite dismissive of the "positives" of this process which actually makes me devalue their opinion. I know that sounds quite rude but it seems like I'm being thought of naive for having a different point of view- even though I have looked at the pros and cons.

    There are also research for it. That's why there are has always been conflicting thoughts and opinions on this subject or it'd simply be right or wrong.

    Eg. "While the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't consider circumcision to be medically necessary, there are some medical reasons for performing one. Those include preventing recurring infections of the head of the penis, avoiding obstruction of urine flow that can result when the prepuce's opening narrows, and preventing a tight prepuce from retracting over the glans. Also, circumcision may reduce the incidence of penile cancer (a very rare condition).
    Even barring these considerations, infections, including urinary tract infections in infants, are less common in a circumcised penis. That's because a circumcised penis is easier to keep clean. (By pulling back the uncircumcised foreskin and cleaning carefully, a man can reduce the formation of smegma, a cottage cheese-like substance that can lead to a foul odor and infection)."

    The way I see it is- It works so well without- why need it. It seems like a lot of little and unnecessary problems occur with heavy foreskin. Yes, I take away the option of knowing how it feels like with more foreskin and that is a valuable point. Thank you for pointing that out. I just think that it's a sensible option to have want it done.

    As for the ill-intent.. It seems like because those that have wished that they'd never want it on their children because they don't wish to "damage" or "harm" their child.. well, I see that as an insult to those that would want it done. Do I/we want to damage or harm our children? No. Same with piercings.. I find that these things actually have a positive effect on them. Whether if they want to dress up with matching earrings and going back to my OH too- I feel that being circumcised has its effect socially and it's looked upon quite postively.

    I agree also that people really should do their research before wanting to go ahead with this procedure. So they can weigh out risks and benefits for themselves. I find it unfair when any decision is placed especially on a child without the proper knowledge.

    ^ That was in response to Ad's post.

    WandA, I understand your point of view.. However I think it's unfair of you to claim my methods are wrong. I really think it's down to personal preference. What's important to you isn't/may not be important to others. Many have been circumcised by their own personal preference. The reasons for wanting to are also prevalent in some parents' minds.

    Yes, I understand a parent may take that choice away from their child but if it is accountable then I think no one has any right to say anything about it aside from the people involved- including (especially) the child. I think, if anything, this discussion has made me think twice about talking to any of my potential sons about the procedure (informing them) for the future whether it is done early on or a little later. Of course I'll be looking into when is suitable.

    I've seen on tv many many discussions on this topic- even by doctors themselves arguing for what is best. That's what it boils down to- how you think of it.

    1290817356
    Alicia D'amore [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm actually really glad you're considering the idea of discussing more with your children.

    I think for many of us - particularly those with strong views on religion (I do understand your motives are *not* religious) because for me at least, and I'd imagine for others, the idea that parents have the *right* to do as they please with *their* children, be that forcing a religion, a medically unnecessary procedure or simply a social decision on them doesn't sit quite right.

    I do believe you have the best interests of your child at heart - and I think it's important to understand the difference between damage and intended harm! It's easy to damage something in the process of trying to do the best without any ill intent.

    For me, whilst I can see the benefits of having circumcision in childhood - I think having it done as an adult has more benefits. It doesn't require *scraping* unless the foreskin is attached still (not that common in adults), painkillers can be taken at the time and afterwards (newborns aren't able to have any anaesthetic), you're old enough to undestand the importance of keeping it clean, old enough to understand the benefits (give me a circumcised male that hasn't at least once considered whethere it was worth it and what they're missing out on? Even if they love being cut!), your old enough and have experienced both sides too so you can appreciate it more! And you've taken the time and research to make a decision for yourself. You, yourself are accountable for the consequences! And actually - I see having to take a few days to heal as a benefit too! If you have to book a few days off work and rest and take care after, you're going to take it seriously and make sure your absolutely sure before you have it done! I think many parents don't take it seriously enough (not saying you're one of them)

    For me, my issue is *not* with circumcision. It's with that choice being taken away, especially with something so permanent.

    Adxx

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