Disability, Unemployment, Lack of Jobs and Government Plans.

 I have just heard on the news that the government wants to assess people for sick notes now by an independent panel. "Independent" My arse! How can it possibly be independent when it is set up by the government!

They actually plan to have this panel decide if people are entitled to a sick note, and decide how long they will be sick for and then inform their GP of their desicion. They want this plan to be the same for those who are sick while employed for the claim of statutory sick pay.

Apparently disabled and ill people aren't getting enough support ... No! Really?? .. And somehow they think this is a step forward in supporting those  who are unable work! Geez! They can't even lie well!

Those who are unable to work are going to all be stripped of their benefits. They wont be entitled to job seekers in a lot of cases, and there are no jobs for them to go into, therefore they will have no money and they will be unable to live! Literally!

I actually feel physically sick...

I can kind of see a logic, in that it's (potentially) another way of stopping claiming benefit illegally, but then surely that's what the doctor's are there for in the first place?

I've got family who were/are disabled, and seen the amount of help that they, and their carers get (not enough), and surely this is just going to create an extra cost that isnt needed, and take even more money away from those who need it??

Apparently nine million fit-notes (as they're actually now called) are for bogus or questionable reasons. Nine million.

Whilst I'm not saying an independant panel is the way to go something has to change. I don't want to pay for other people to sit on the arses because they feel like they want some time off.

I have a stressful job and have been struggling with things recently but I haven't thought, "I know, I'll get signed off". I've never ever actually physically asked for a sick-note - I don't think it's the sort of thing you should 'ask' for unless your Dr is an idiot and refuses to do anything for you.

That said, Dr's are complaining that they're being asked to deal with social issues as well as medical ones - I think sometimes they go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive... anyway I digress.

My point is, there are a lot of people out there who aren't genuinely claiming unemployment and disability and we're paying for them. Its about time they were outed. But paying an independant panel to do it will surely just cost extra?

I'd probably be working now if I'd been 'allowed' to take time off when I needed it. By the time it came, the damage had been done.

Hmm this is interesting .. you would think you have nothing to fear if you are really sick and need a sick note or fit note (no idea they were called that)

That said, some years ago, my dad had breathing difficulties and couldnt walk very far at all .. to claim disability he had to go before a panel, asked personal questions inc how far he could walk, could he cycle, walk up stairs etc etc (not sure what department they were from) before they decided he didnt qualify for benefits. It was only when they diagnosed him with lung cancer a year or so later that he got paid the full entitlement. But i was so outraged because my dad should have received the help way before he finally was awarded it.

I have a feeling there will be all sorts of inconsistencies with this policy!

Where I live there's fucking loads of lazy bastards (and they are bone fucking idle moaning and groaning constantly about their benefits and rights) taking the piss and faking illness/injury. How the hell they get away with it I don't know! There's fuck all wrong with them!

 See, I'm not able to work for several reasons. My GP agrees, my physiotherapist agrees and my orthapeadist agrees. Even my benefits advisor at the local job centre agrees. But the DWP are controlled by the government and they have targets to get people off benefits and in to work and they must do everything in their power to save the government money, so that means denying pretty much everyone benefits, and since job seekers is open for everyone out of work, and income support is the last safe benefit if you happen to be entitled to it, that leaves disability living allowence, employment and support allowence and those who still get incapacity benefit.

They are already reassessing everybody, and my reassessment has been really messed up. I'm lucky to still get my money but I have no idea where my next money will come from as they may still stop it at any time!

I'm also really annoyed that I have been lumped in to the Work Programme which is not designed at all for those with disabilities or health problems. It really feels like I've been thrown in with job seekers and that even though I cannot work, I am being pressured in to looking for work. 

I begin to wonder if maybe I should work. I'm sure it would be better than the stress of being on benefits, but the fact is I am genuinly unable to. So, is it right that genuine claimants of disability/incapacity are being pressured so harshly in to working, even though being in work poses a significant risk to their health? Surely not. Surely it is illegal somehow, and if not it should be! In fact, the only time I have ever felt discriminated against was by the Work Programme. I ended up reporting them as the staff were mocking me walking with crutches.

Whilst  acknowledging the problems you have with the system A.A. and rightly so you should be hacked off. There are too many freeloaders in this country who are getting away with murder and something drastic needs to be done. Recent newspaper reports suggest that in trial areas across the country people that were called in for assessment the numbers that signed off benefits before their showdown with officials was humongous,proving what most of us already know. The system stinks. For genuine cases like youself and others it must be worrying.

I took ill on holiday abroad in 2004 and on returning to the U.K.early was admitted to hospital for over 7 weeks, it took until eventually 2007 before i finally got a diagnosis for my condition SLE. I carried on working tho' on reduced hours because the condition tricks your immune system into fighting itself. I had difficulty with breathing, my body was plauged by rhumatoid arthritis and blood problems and the lethary was awful.   Because of shorter hours i applied for disability working benefit to top up my wages and help out with living costs, thats what it is there for. You've guessed it - NO CHANCE.

 Yet lo and behold. my next door neigbour has not worked a day in the 20 years i have lived next to him. Back problems, knee problems and elbow problems. Yet his garden has the nicest decking,water feature, paving and YEP he did all himself and has a great suntan every year to show for it. By the way his wife doesn't work either. A co;;eague at work does the same job as i do and just as well as me. He has diabetes and hardning of the arteries in his legs, and has since had an operation done on them and is running around like a spring chicken. But, he takes great pleasure in telling us about his disability working allowance,on top of his wages, disabled status he now has, his brand new car that cost next to nothing a month on the motability scheme and some benefit or other that he also gets to help his fuel bills and god knows what else because he spouts off about how he knows how to work the system. Many a time i've considered phoning the benefit fraud helpline to shop him but i've no proof,only what he tells me, IF it is all true.

As a hard working citizen who has only been unfortunate to be out of work once since i left school, i am in my mid fifties now,it makes me cringe what some of these lazy articles get away with without ever doing an honest days work. Probably don't even know what work is...i'm right with you on this one SEXY GET 69 makes your blood boil, doesn't it? Iwould even guess that most people on this forum know at least one person who is on this scam with benefits, whereas the REAL genuine cases who deserve everything and more than they get now should and could benefit if we got rid of all these hangers on.

Sorry about the rant people but this subject really gets my blood pressure up and helps pass away a couple of hours on the night shift now the tide is out. I'm a harbour master by the way.

 Me and my partner (who is on DLA - Disability living allowence) have been discussing this all. I'm at the edge of tears with all the stress of everything to do with my benefit (ESA - Employment and support allowence) and what might happen and what will surely happen because the DWP can't be bothered to work out who is genuine and whos not. Just deny everyone instead, it makes the figures look better after all!

It seems the false claiments get everything handed on a plate! But the genuine claimants have ti scratch and claw and fight up a vertical slope to get anything at all! 

I'm now upset because my partner has rightfully pointed out that my most recent doctor who is working with my injury is a flippin' monkey! It's all so unfair. Very unfair. The worst of it is that I know whats wrong with my foot, but they wont check it because it will prove that they have messed up. Doctors, Specialists, Dwp staff and Tories, Labour, Lib Dems etc.. All useless.

Totally agree with your last sentence A.A, keep your head held high hon and don't let the bastards grind you down. If i eventually get to win the euro lottery one day you and yours will get a personal invite to come and stay on the desert island my wife and i are going to buy. No government, no hassles, just a beach, a bar and a restaraunt. and no work. The rest of the LH forum members will also join us. I'm sure 80 odd million euros should see us right for a few years and if we run out of cash we can come back to the u.k. as immigrants. Free housing, benefits coming out of our ears,everything on a plate. Every bugger else gets away with it, Simples,sorted.

AA agree with you hun, the new system is a nightmare. OH managed to bugger up his foot parking a car in a tree.

He cannot stand for long, cannot sit for long before he needs to put weight on it. Has difficulty kneeling and even more getting back up. He is in constant discomfort. A mechanic by trade he is now unemployable as such. But the DWP have said that he is fit to go back to work.

His Dr wants him to have another surgery to remove an extra spur of bone that is growing in his ankle joint which causes his foot to point out to the side.

Right now I am the only one with any money coming in, and not much of that so life is tough.

I get really angry that people with genuine need have to fight to get help while others seem to work the system and get everything handed to them

xGGx

I'll say one thing that might be controvertial: leave those who want to be on benefits on them.  For the moment, at least.

Yeah, sounds terrible, but think about it this way.  There are literally thousands of people like me, people who want to work but for whom jobs just aren't available.  Think of how many jobs are currently wasted on those compulsory work schemes and placements and people who really do not want to be there and won't put the work in to do the job right.  Surely, while jobs are so scarce that there's not even enough for those who WANT to work, and CAN work, then making it harder for us to find work by pushing those who can't or don't want to into the few available positions is idiotic.

If they really want to lower the numbers, they need to start investing in schemes that will create jobs, not committees to try and criminalise those who don't have a job regardless of the reasons.  Then, when getting a job is actually a viable option for people, start looking at who they can afford to push harder.  Right now, the numbers aren't high because of scroungers, they're high because the jobs just plain don't exist, and a lot are being 'stolen' to put Work Seekers on (unpaid) placements instead of given to those of us that would stay there.

I'm sure the primary motive of the government is to reduce their spend on social security so the way they are presenting this is disingenuous. However, I'm sure something needs to be done.

Unfortunately the legitimate claimant will certainly be put to more trouble because we have many that just work the system.

We used to employ home-workers to do light electrical assembly. Our people delivered the work and collected it and it paid well over minimum wage (our in-house people could earn well over double minimum wage at the piece-rates we paid). However, we gave up on the scheme because there were so many who, when they found out we wouldn't be complicit in their claiming benefit and working at the same time, just couldn't be bothered to do the job. Sadly lead-swingers are not rare in our society.

Also there is the whole issue of whether your GP is in a good position to do the job? Do they have the time to deal with the inevitable back-chat from those they deny a note? How many of them would feel pressured: fearing possible out-of-hours reprisals from those they refuse a note? My GP is a friend of long-standing - should he be permitted to give me a note if I wanted one? (obviously not!)

A good friend of mine died of cancer recently. She ran her own company and, despite being well over retirement age, she was working right up to within days of her death. A lot of my friends are either self-employed or are directors of their own company and without exception you would have to knock them down with a base-ball bat to keep them from work. Of course, by running their own show they don't have a lot of choice! If we are going to dig ourselves out of the financial mess we are all in we are going to need many more of us to have the 'work-till-I-drop' ethic.

And lets face it you need to be in a hell of a mess not to be able to do anything. If you can sit at a PC and type a message then you are physically capable of doing a whole raft of clerical jobs and I know that banks, for example, farm some of these out to home-workers on the end of a phone/broadband line. The world is crying out for web-page designers - a job you can do from home on a PC.

I just don't buy the 'there are no jobs out there' thing. Although my core business is quite at the moment I'm totally mown-out with work for other sectors - booked solid for 9 months ahead. Also, a couple of friends got made redundant some months ago and by shear persistence they both have good jobs again despite one of them having no paper qualifications at all.

I think this is one of those things that are so much more complicated than many people think.

It's sad that in reality "independant" so often means people who aren't medically trained. The percentage of people who are deemed "fit for work" by non medical professionals is sickening. And there are many, many issues with the company that are charged with assessing people. So it's a huge issue that's not as simple as many people fortunate not to need to apply for disability related benefits will understand fully. Not to mention The Daily Fail's policy of deciding to rant and rave about how you only need to fill in a form (certainly not that simple) to be awarded disability related benefits.

The issue is, as has been mentioned - the people who *need* the benefits are getting challenged, having to go to court to appeal the decision made by someone who doesn't understand their condition and has been charged with lowering the number of people on disability related benefits. The percentage, by the way, of people who appeal successfully is 70% if they have the legal support they are entitled to telling us there's something wrong with the independent assessment.

The people who don't need the benefits, the benefit fraudsters, often get away with it and know all the tips and tricks to get through without all the aggro.

Often these schemes designed to stop the fraudsters only hinder and damage those that need and deserve the support.

Adx

BashfulBabe wrote:

I'll say one thing that might be controvertial: leave those who want to be on benefits on them.  For the moment, at least.

Yeah, sounds terrible, but think about it this way.  There are literally thousands of people like me, people who want to work but for whom jobs just aren't available.  Think of how many jobs are currently wasted on those compulsory work schemes and placements and people who really do not want to be there and won't put the work in to do the job right.  Surely, while jobs are so scarce that there's not even enough for those who WANT to work, and CAN work, then making it harder for us to find work by pushing those who can't or don't want to into the few available positions is idiotic.

If they really want to lower the numbers, they need to start investing in schemes that will create jobs, not committees to try and criminalise those who don't have a job regardless of the reasons.  Then, when getting a job is actually a viable option for people, start looking at who they can afford to push harder.  Right now, the numbers aren't high because of scroungers, they're high because the jobs just plain don't exist, and a lot are being 'stolen' to put Work Seekers on (unpaid) placements instead of given to those of us that would stay there.

Interesting take on it and one I hadnt thought of..........

Frustrating because why should the scroungers get away with being paid money to do sweet FA, but you're right if people want to, but can't find a job, but would stay and give it their all then yes, would make sense to let them have the job first.

I also think there are people out there who probably could work doing something, they just don't know what. I mean there are people out there who are disabled and still work (perhaps more for themselves and their own peace of mind rather than because someone tells them too?) and with some guidance could find a job that would suit them.....

DRA I definitely agree with you - I think a much more positive way of tackling the number of people on disability related benefits is to support them back into work if they and their medical professional believes they can get there. Helping them find jobs that may be easier to manage and takes into account their limitations, giving them all the information on what support they're entitled to from their current or future employer and giving them a place to go for advice.

I think people can be dismissive sometimes (I'm not saying anyone here has been btw, just that people in general sometimes can be) and forget or not understand that becoming or being disabled is a terrifying and incredibly difficult thing to go through, not just because of the signs and symptoms the person suffers but because of the emotional and psychological side of things - feelings of inadequency or just feeling too scared to ask for help especially if you feel you're going to get judged by your current or future employer if you divulge the details of your disability.

Adx

I appreciate that some people cannot work at all (I have a friend whose symptoms with arthiritis vary so much that some days you wouldn't know anything is wrong with her, other days she's incapable of doing anything without help). I'm sure that people with those sorts of fluctuations would find it very difficult to work.

However I think there are people on benefits for disability who are only disabled from doing what they're used to doing.  Whilst you may have always done a physical job is there anything stopping you working in a call centre for example? It's just a matter of redefining yourself sometimes. Whilst it's incredibly tough changing your chosen occupation (I've done it recently) it is possible.

Being employed (either by working or studying) does wonders for people's self-worth & happiness & it astounds me that people are signed off from work with depression.  To make myself clear - I don't doubt the severity of depression as an illness I just wonder how the government think they're are helping people with depression by encouraging them to do nothing all day. In my experience doing something productive & at least getting out of the house each day helps with depression. Having too much time with your own thoughts when depressed can be fatal (unfortunately literally). These people aren't best served by being isolated from the rest of the world, they just need some help & understanding & time to help them back onto their metaphoric feet.

I think the idea of assessing what a person is capable of & pressuring employers to properly support people with disabilities can only be a good thing.

The government need to be very careful that they don't force people into poverty but so long as they're supporting people rather than cutting them off, this policy could do a lot of good.

I can certainly understand your concerns Avrielle but I hope that the prime minister (having had a disabled son die recently) will have a little more understanding of disability than other ministers have shown. I hope your fears turn out to be without foundation.

CCW x

CurlyCoupleWife wrote:

I think the idea of assessing what a person is capable of & pressuring employers to properly support people with disabilities can only be a good thing.

CCW x

Again - the issue isn't with the idea of assessing people as such. More the way it's put into practice and who is used to assess. Many of the assessors have no medical qualifications which is really wrong imo.

The other thing I'd just like to comment on from experience is the depression - just because it's a difficult one and I'm sure you appreciate that! My mother is quite badly depressed and worked in the same job for more than 25 years. She absolutely loved her job...but there came a point when with her depression and fibromyalgia the job she was in was destroying her. I saw the transformation over the last 3 years because I wasn't living with her and she absolutely, 100% needed to get out of that situation. Fortunately, my dad could support her so she took redundancy and has never been better in to 20+ years she's had fibromyalgia and the life long depression she's suffered. She works with her medical professionals and her family to ensure she's keeping busy enough to not become isolated - but health care and work are two separate things and I don't think it's logical to say that the government should ensure depressed people are working because it's better for them - their doctors can assess what that person needs. Or an independant (but medically qualified) assessor if a successful way of doing that can be found!

Adxx

I'm very sure there are people out there who are capable but no longer have the inclination to work. I appreciate dispensation may need to be made but they can work.

On the subject of Dr's assessing what's needed, I wonder how many Dr's are just a bit complacent or get too close to the patient to say to them, get your arse in gear, do X, Y and Z and get yourself back into work I'm not signing you off anymore... Perhaps the NHS needs to man up.

I agree its not logial to say people with depression are better off working, but this is just one illness from many in which in some cases it might be better to get back into work just to see other people and have a purpose in life.

Perhaps the way forward is after X amount of months you're referred to an independant panel made up with healthcare professionals and others, if you're still not showing signs of going back to work.

Innocent people as it were, would still have to go for the review but I'd like to hope their files showed whether or not they really could go back to work and could start to weed out those who really had no excuse....?

Dirty Red Angel wrote:

On the subject of Dr's assessing what's needed, I wonder how many Dr's are just a bit complacent or get too close to the patient to say to them, get your arse in gear, do X, Y and Z and get yourself back into work I'm not signing you off anymore... Perhaps the NHS needs to man up.

There's no two ways about it - a person's doctor is the best placed person to say what their patient needs in their own individual case. However - I agree that if someone is signed off sick for the long term then an independent review may well be useful - as long as the assessor is medically trained.

And I agree with your last statement - I'm not saying at all (I hope I've made this clear) that there's an issue with independent assessment - it's that the current assessors are not up to scratch and it's meaning many, many disabled people are having to take their case to appeal - not what you need if you're already suffering a debilitating illness and it is horrible to say it - but it is killing people. People who've spent much of their life having to justify themselves to doctors and people who don't believe they're sick, to then be told that they're "officially" *fine/fit to work* is sending people to take desperate action.

One patient who was assessed and scored "fit to work" by the independent assessors, died in the assessment building. The family received the assessment judgement on the day of the funeral. There's something very seriously wrong with the current assessment system.

Adx