London Riots

My post got eaten out. SO this is shorter.

So I am not saying some people who are in trouble because of their health etc dont deserve help. Thats different! I gave a concrete example of why I think some people do this to themselves! In the example, the people dont care about primary education, which is compulsary and free (9 years). They cannot be bothered to send the kids to schools because living out of the socially given money is sooo much easier. Regardless the republic lacks craftmen to the point companies are willing to support you through the secondary state by giving you some money while you study and in return you then work for the company for couple of years - yet this means you can get security of employment. But these people dont care about school or working, they only care about free money and they want more and more and I do mean this. often the girls are pregnant by the age of 18, contributing highly to the number of under the age of 18 pregnancy cases. They have lot of kids to claim more benefits. If they are given cheap concil housing, they just destroy it and sell as many parts as they can. They even can steal other people properties to sell them and get more money. They dont care about paying bills because often they just try to connect on their neighbours and get electricity from there. All attempts to participate more in the society failed.

So I do stand behind what I said. Some people do bring this on themselves. And you missed the word some. Not all

I agree with Laveila, there are so many cases of people not caring or not doing what they are supposed to.

For example, my mum works at the hospital and she works very hard. She has chronic back pain, some days she can hardly move, yet she takes pain killers and does the best she can. Other people don't work half as hard and take lots of sick time (you still get paid), it seems you can't get sacked for anything there.

The louder you shout at my mums boss, the more you get out of him. She does over-time to help, often doing half shifts to cover when people are sick (they don't bring in more staff, just get the people who are on to do more work). She is getting married in December, the 28th as it will be exactly 6 years ago since her and her partner first met. She asked her boss about taking a weeks annual leave from the 25th or 26th to the 1st. So she can prepare her wedding (which she is doing herself, no caters, no flower arrangers etc). She asked in June, she has worked every christmas due to the work she does. He said she could have Christmas day to New years day off and to leave it with him. However now, as loud people have demanded they get Christmas and time off, she now only gets 3 days off. Yes 3! One day before the wedding, the wedding and one day after. Bloody good honey moon that would be! She cannot physically prepare a wedding in one day, she has to get the home sorted, cook several meals and then doing the usual beautification. 

It seems the louder, lazier and more obnoxious you are, the better you get things. 

 -Sigh- I thought Manchester was going to take the moral high ground; if only to have something over Liverpool.

So horrible to see the city I class as my second home now being mindlessly trashed for no reason. The selfishness of some people boggles the mind.

BashfulBabe wrote:

Laveila wrote:

The question is why are some people becoming poorer? If they work and try to make their living, than yes, thats sad, because salaries rise is very slow, but the costs of living are going up. Those people often try their best to secure their families.

On the other hand I believe some of them are causing the situation for themselves.

A lot of the areas have had more and more flats and smaller houses squashed in, with ameneties closing left, right and centre.  More people in smaller areas, with possible employers leaving and being replaced by yet more people, has meant more people unable to find work even before the economy went down the toilet.  With the recession, there have been what in other countries would be called ghettos or slums, areas where most are unemployed, have parents who have never worked - regardless of will or effort - and streets look disgraceful as the refurbishment and maintenance money goes towards the shopping districts, and the few folk striving to keep the community out of the gutter have lost their jobs, while those struggling to exist have had benefits slashed or removed, support netowrks stripped away, and been lambasted repeatedly in the media as 'scroungers'.

Bashful Babe I don't think it's as simple as that. It's not just the poor who are getting the rough end of the stick, everyone bar the rich is getting stuffed. I know how the social service system treats people, my sister has a long term terminal illness and is constantly having to argue to get the little bit of money she needs to survive. Having said that I'm in a reasonably lucky position that my hubby has a good job (one of the few) and I manage to earn enough freelancing after redundancy (third time) yet all I see is both of us paying out extortionate taxes, NI, vat on essentials such as clothing, heating and lighting and being treated as nothing more than a cash cow for the government and a large sector of the claimants. It's only right that people who can pay taxes etc support people who need help BUT I hate seeing my money wasted when I see things like the riots and see them wearing trainers I could never afford and carrying Blackberries and other fancy phones etc. I live just outside Oldham, a really poor town, and when out and about I see people who I know are on the dole buying expensive stuff, smoking and going out drinking several nights a week. I don't see how they can afford to buy such stuff, I have to stick to a tight budget and wouldn't be able to afford it. 

My sister lives next door to a 'lady' who has never worked and has been on benefits for years. She could work but can't get a job so she doesn't bother anymore. Her house is a tip! She's at home all day so why can't she take a little pride in her home and at least keep it clean? She doesn't need spend much, if anything on cleaning products, just water would proabably do but she wont even do that. Every now and then the council takes her kid away and makes her clean the place up. Tell me why I should support someone like that? 

I know that there are people in the 'system' like yourself (and myself for the, thankfully, short period I claimed) who would dearly love to work but I also know that there is a vast number who have the attitude that they should be looked after by the state. My cousin works at a large Social Services offices and both my uncles did until they recently retired from there. My cousin in particular is shocked at the attitude he's encountered and rarely comes across someone who genuinely had a desire to get out of the benefits trap. Whether the attitude is due to despair at the lack of prospects or just plain laziness we can't keep on supporting those who can work and wont. It seems that no matter what government we have they are just different sides of the same coin. They aren't interested in the creation of wealth for the whole of society but for a select few.  

Hope you get your college stuff gets sorted and all goes really well for you on your course. 

I think the problem is - and BB has explained it perfectly - people are sick and tired. Why *would* you have pride in your work ethic if your told time and time again your not good enough to work - not just by the jobcentre but people who can't be bothered to apply for jobs are like that for a reason. Living on the dole is hardly cushy. These people are living hand to mouth, I don't think very many would choose that for themselves.

But when you're born to a family who doesn't work, with 5 or 6 brothers and sisters, in an area where everyone is poor and to stay safe you have little choice but to get involved with the local gang because if you're not with them you're against them and they live on your estate. You go to school but the school is in a dreadful area, the teachers don't give a shit and all the other kids play up because they don't understand what it means to enjoy learning to be encouraged to work and to be cared about. Your parents only care about the next lot of money to get their fags or whatever else they're addicted too (and remember addiction is a disease) and you've so many siblings that you might as well be invisible. Your teachers couldn't care less, as long as you're quiet you get ignored so you play up for attention - you don't understand what normal is - why would it make sense to behave and be quiet if it gets you nowhere? Your parents don't care if you get a good education - schools are just free childcare - and they never had an education so why should you, you're worthless, just like they are!

And those who do work in the area that you live in are poorer than you are, they work their fingers to the bone but they still live in a shitty council estate and still can't afford much. Why would you work that hard, noone thanks you, there's no reward and you don't get any personal reward from it because you don't know what it's like to be normal. You're worthless remember.

And then you get to 16, you can go do your a levels, if you're lucky or you can go out and work, or sign on. And the government don't support you - if you sign on, you get dole money - if you go to college, the government's taken away the support. EMA no longer exists. So why would you bother? It costs money to get there, and you won't get anywhere with it - you're worthless remember.

So you sign on, have a kid, what's the point in using protection - it doesn't matter if you get sick or have kids. You get pregnant or get a girl pregnant, have a child and the whole cycle starts again. And then the government shits on you further by pulling out the only place you could go in the evening to stay out of trouble - so you go to the park and get leathered. It's better than sitting at home bored and feeling worthless.

This is not the same as the services being pulled out of rich areas. Yes - it's tough for the rich - but you tell me you would want the above for your child? Show me a person who would choose that? You can't help where you're born!! But you can help how you treat your fellow man and labelling these people as lazy scumbags who sponge off the state is anything but helpful!

These aren't lazy adults - these are children, who haven't been taught any better. They don't understand. And yes, the behaviour is contemtable and they should be held responsible but this is a cry for help and things need to change.

Money doesn't need to be thrown at the problem - money needs to be spent carefully and wisely. We need to give poor children a better education - equal opportunities and teach them about their options. Not just bung them all in shit schools and hope they all stick together in their scummy areas that they "choose" (yeah right) to live in, to be born in! And hope they don't come anywhere near us!

And I'm sorry for the rant. But it saddens me that these kids are treated like this is what they chose - like we wouldn't need the support if god for bid we were born into that situation. And sure, there are people who come out of that background and work hard - but with no role models and no support - it's fucking hard - you're swimming up a waterfall whilst people throw stones at you from above!

Adx

Alicia D'amore wrote:

I think the problem is - and BB has explained it perfectly - people are sick and tired. Why *would* you have pride in your work ethic if your told time and time again your not good enough to work - not just by the jobcentre but people who can't be bothered to apply for jobs are like that for a reason. Living on the dole is hardly cushy. These people are living hand to mouth, I don't think very many would choose that for themselves.

But when you're born to a family who doesn't work, with 5 or 6 brothers and sisters, in an area where everyone is poor and to stay safe you have little choice but to get involved with the local gang because if you're not with them you're against them and they live on your estate. You go to school but the school is in a dreadful area, the teachers don't give a shit and all the other kids play up because they don't understand what it means to enjoy learning to be encouraged to work and to be cared about. Your parents only care about the next lot of money to get their fags or whatever else they're addicted too (and remember addiction is a disease) and you've so many siblings that you might as well be invisible. Your teachers couldn't care less, as long as you're quiet you get ignored so you play up for attention - you don't understand what normal is - why would it make sense to behave and be quiet if it gets you nowhere? Your parents don't care if you get a good education - schools are just free childcare - and they never had an education so why should you, you're worthless, just like they are!

And those who do work in the area that you live in are poorer than you are, they work their fingers to the bone but they still live in a shitty council estate and still can't afford much. Why would you work that hard, noone thanks you, there's no reward and you don't get any personal reward from it because you don't know what it's like to be normal. You're worthless remember.

And then you get to 16, you can go do your a levels, if you're lucky or you can go out and work, or sign on. And the government don't support you - if you sign on, you get dole money - if you go to college, the government's taken away the support. EMA no longer exists. So why would you bother? It costs money to get there, and you won't get anywhere with it - you're worthless remember.

So you sign on, have a kid, what's the point in using protection - it doesn't matter if you get sick or have kids. You get pregnant or get a girl pregnant, have a child and the whole cycle starts again. And then the government shits on you further by pulling out the only place you could go in the evening to stay out of trouble - so you go to the park and get leathered. It's better than sitting at home bored and feeling worthless.

This is not the same as the services being pulled out of rich areas. Yes - it's tough for the rich - but you tell me you would want the above for your child? Show me a person who would choose that? You can't help where you're born!! But you can help how you treat your fellow man and labelling these people as lazy scumbags who sponge off the state is anything but helpful!

These aren't lazy adults - these are children, who haven't been taught any better. They don't understand. And yes, the behaviour is contemtable and they should be held responsible but this is a cry for help and things need to change.

Money doesn't need to be thrown at the problem - money needs to be spent carefully and wisely. We need to give poor children a better education - equal opportunities and teach them about their options. Not just bung them all in shit schools and hope they all stick together in their scummy areas that they "choose" (yeah right) to live in, to be born in! And hope they don't come anywhere near us!

And I'm sorry for the rant. But it saddens me that these kids are treated like this is what they chose - like we wouldn't need the support if god for bid we were born into that situation. And sure, there are people who come out of that background and work hard - but with no role models and no support - it's fucking hard - you're swimming up a waterfall whilst people throw stones at you from above!

Adx

 

My hubby & I grew up in one of these areas you're talking about (maybe not the worst but certainly not brilliant) and went to schools where the teachers really couldn't be bothered. Those kids who weren't bunking off school were more than likely setting light to it! Yet, we have both done okay. Maybe it's because both of my parents and also my grandparents worked and had a work ethic that they'd sooner clean the streets (like my Grandad did) rather than claim the dole. 

Money does need to be spent carefully and in areas such as health, education and job creation rather than wasted on schemes that are unlikely to benefit anyone other than the idle ones. One such example is where money is poured into 'training' people how to apply for jobs instead of it being used for job creation. 

I don't class myself as rich but what little we do have we have worked very hard for. We can't afford to go on holiday once a year, yet I have neighbours on the dole who can manage it. I come from a very working class background and it does annoy me that people use their poor start in life as an excuse to do nothing. If you sit there moaning about it your situation will never get better. Don't wait for someone to come along and change your lot in life, get off your arse and change it yourself. Not everyone is going to make it but I see far too many not even bothering to try. 

Sharry - it's important to recognise how massive a difference a good role model makes. If you had wonderful parents and grandparents then that's something to be really grateful for but many of these kids have noone - their parents couldn't care less, they're the 3rd generation not working, their teachers don't give a shit, the support systems don't help them. There is noone to look up to.

As I said - I'm not saying it's an excuse but when you grown up in this situation you don't know any better, you don't understand how you can change things for yourself, you've never been taught and you don't know what's available out there to help you. And as I said - the only people who work hard and live on council areas are often poorer than those who don't work. Once you get enough money, you move out. So you've got noone around you to look to for inspiration.

I'm not saying it's an excuse - but it is a reason. And we need to recognise these difficulties and make some big changes.

I've said it a few times and I'll say it again - a lot of these people are just children - noone has taught them any better. They don't know *how* to change things, they need support and advice and good education. And good role models from a young age is just crucial which is why instead of allowing sponsered schools the government should look at improving state schools especially (but not only) in poor areas.

Adx

AD, I agree with many of your points as, in general, they echo my own comments. With regards to role models, yes, they do play an important part but, from my hubby's personal experience, they are not the be all and end all. Society as a whole needs to change so that relying on the state to provide for you is seen as a last resort and not a lifestyle.

As you rightly say, it's hard to manage on benefits, unless that is, you know how to play the system. When my sister first started to claim disabilty allowance she was 'approached' by someone who offered to fill her form in for her so she could be sure she would get her full benefit. Needless to say she turned them down. 

I wanted my own things as a kid and as a family we couldn't afford some of them I got my first saturday job in the local hairdressers sweeping floors at 11years old. I went out and got that, no one told me to. If I wanted anything I had to save my own money. Don't get me wrong, I was looked after. My Mum used to stay up 'til all hours making clothes for my sister and I but things were tough. 

Not all hard working people move out of council estates. All four of my grandparents lived in them 'til they died a few years ago and my sister still lives on one. Although she can't work she keeps her house spotless and takes pride in both her appearance and home. There are still people on these estates that are role models, it's just that people will generally choose the path of least resistance and if this means the dole then so be it. 

hoodies should be banned and covering your face in public should be banned for both male andd female of any relegion. You dont see scumbags walking the streets in hoodies and track suites in any other european city other than in the UK and Ireland.

des69er wrote:

hoodies should be banned and covering your face in public should be banned for both male andd female of any relegion. You dont see scumbags walking the streets in hoodies and track suites in any other european city other than in the UK and Ireland.

Don't ban hoodies. I live in mine - it's practical and warm and when I'm poorly or in a lot of pain, I put my hood up to feel all snuggly and people know I'm not happy and it explains why I'm quiet :P

Hoodies aren't just for chavs, they're also part of the student uniform and students are mostly harmless ;)

Sharry, I agree - I think my biggest point is that it's not quite as simple as writing these people off, but that doesn't mean they have an excuse. There's a collection of lots of reasons and one of them is poverty but as has already mentioned - there's also this feeling that the world owes you something. And this society that pushes material things "if you haven't got an iphone..." which then means poor people put those things before what most people would class as higher priority. This is an interesting article with some great comments: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting

As Ben Goldacre says "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that" - there's a whole number of issues and some of them are the fault of the kids involved, and somewhere our government has failed. And the whole things needs properly, intelligently looking into. Not that the government ever sees the point in funding research to mould policy.

Adx

lol iv changed my mind

 Actually, was there not a law passed that you are not allowed to cover your face when you enter a shop? 

All this talk on here makes me feel like such a scrounger. :(

Avrielle_Aniko wrote:

 Actually, was there not a law passed that you are not allowed to cover your face when you enter a shop? 

All this talk on here makes me feel like such a scrounger. :(

You are different, you are not able to work. We are talking about people that can work but won't.

Avrielle_Aniko wrote:

 Actually, was there not a law passed that you are not allowed to cover your face when you enter a shop? 

All this talk on here makes me feel like such a scrounger. :(

Oh dont feel that way! Those who cannot work because of their health should receive support.

Avrielle_Aniko wrote:

 Actually, was there not a law passed that you are not allowed to cover your face when you enter a shop? 

All this talk on here makes me feel like such a scrounger. :(

Don't be silly... the whole point of what I've been saying is that some people who are able to work see benefits as their way to avoid working. If anything I believe benefits should be increased so that people who do genuinely need this help get a decent level of money to live on. There is an awful lot of money wasted by being given to people who could work but wouldn't... that is when work was available.  

The thing that is most important in a decent society is that people who need support get it and not to have it squandered on people who don't deserve it. 

Please do not feel that any of my comments were leveled at people like yourself who are in genuine need of assistance. I get angry on behalf of anyone needing support who get a hard time trying to claim when there are low lifes leaching off the state and takiing money out of the pockets of those who need it. 

 Yeah, I suppose . There are a lot of people who have no restrictions but don't work because they don't want to or tryto.

But technically, I probably could work. Sitting ayt a till in a shop a couple of hours a day. But no one would take mre  on while I haave 2 crutches and places always want people who can do othdr things like stacking shelves or in the stock room which are things I wouldn't be able to do, rather than just sitting at a till.

But there are so many people out there who suffer various health problems, yet it doesn't prevent them working. people with bad backs, people who go in anc out of hospital, people who just put up with chronic pain and they all carry on living relatively normal working lives, but herr I am sitting round the house anc I just feel that maybe I'm the sort of person who should be out, putting up with my pain too. I certainly don't feel ready to go back in to work but maybe I am the sort of person who is lumped in to the caytagory of those who 'should' be working.

 There is alot of speculation of what has happened, a lot of people have been affected by cuts of some sort, but you don't see these people smashing, looting and setting alight properties, cars, businesses and even hurting people. The people who have done this are brain dead scum, who saw an opportunity to make a quick buck, and no matter how they have been let down, it does not justify their behaviour. I have a friend in the fire service who have been up practically all day every day sorting these fires out, family in the police who want to help but can't due to higher authorities, whether its the government or other sources, not letting them do so. I have friend's whose families have lost businesses and houses. 

End of the day, yes the Government need to make changes, to help more run down areas, bring back more discipline etc but keep in mind, will some of these people take up these opportunities if they were on the doorstep? Will people appreciate or abuse it? 

Some people who claim that they are doing this due to University fees, frustration against the Government, have perfectly decent jobs and lives. 

War peace and revolution dance in an endless waltz. If people have lost their minds those against them will stand and fight in there own way. Either the riots will be quelled in time, or and sincearly mean god help us if they are not and more drastic measures need be taken.    

After reading this i feel like a proper waster. I'm on the dole, have only been for just under a month but it is already getting me down, i've signed on once and it is simply miserable.

I want to work, i've just left college where i studied for two years, i've applied for about 15 jobs in my field of expetise and about 30 jobs in shopwork etc, out of that i have had 1 interview, where i was offered voluntary work but the job was given to someone else (can't start voluntary yet as it is a school, term starts in september) and i have an interview for smithdown asda, which staying on topic i'm a bit frightened to go to!

i feel like such a loser, such a scrounger and such a "youth" but i am not one of these people on the news!

very upset by everything that is going on because i do not want to be tarred with the same brush. i want to work, i am willing to work, i would ideally like to work within the sector i studied for 2 and a half years to work in, but if i cannot find a job in schools/nurseries i will work in a shop or cleaning etc.

I am just so miserable by my situation :[

VW x

ive been looking for a job since april, despite being a graduate with a good degree I cant even get voluntary positions in charity shops. So im working myself to get a job as well as enrolling on voluntary courses.i live rurally and have to rely on a weak public transport system. I will be out of work for a long while most likley, despite all my efforts.

And when i turn up to the job centre to look through the jobs or sign on or attend courses i get glares and looks.i *know* people assume i'm a doleite scrouger

Moral of the story? Dont judge a book by its cover, and don't tar everyone with the same brush!