• PayPal

    1330922782
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    You may not have heard this yet, but apparently the payment processing giant PayPal has threatened to withdraw its services from some publishing sites unless they remove from sale books dealing with certain themes that they find distasteful.

    Note that these books do not contain anything illegal, just storylines that PayPal has said they do not want to be associated with. There's more on the story here -

    http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2012/03/04/did-last-weeks-outrage-over-paypal-censorship-actually-accomplish-anything/

    but most erotic fiction sites and blogs are debating the issue hotly in their comments section.

    The question I wanted to ask is: would this ban affect anything stocked by Lovehoney? And is it only a matter of time before PayPal decides they object to sex toys, and puts this site at risk? If there is an alternative to PayPal out there, shouldn't Lh be investigating a move towards a more stable service provider now, before there's a problem?

    1330940207
    rose hip [sign in to see picture]
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    Oh bloody hell. (And thank you LH for allowing me to say that here %-). I really don't want to have to boycott paypal. :-(

    1330946058
    innocent-on-the-outside [sign in to see picture]
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    rose hip wrote:

    Oh bloody hell. (And thank you LH for allowing me to say that here %-). I really don't want to have to boycott paypal. :-(

     

    agree with this completly!

    1330946466
    sharry [sign in to see picture]
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    rose hip wrote:

    Oh bloody hell. (And thank you LH for allowing me to say that here %-). I really don't want to have to boycott paypal. :-(

     

    They are utter morons!! What is wrong with these idiots? What right do they have to say what we can and can't buy??? Cretins. 

    If they do, as rose hip says, boycott them. 

    1330981995
    Lovehoney - Richard [sign in to see picture]
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    We have a good relationship with Paypal, talk to them regularly and there isn't even the shadow of a hint of a suspicion that they will remove payment processing facilities from Lovehoney. Paypal isn't our only payment option.

    Paypal is (quite understandably) concerned about its facilities being used to facilitate payments for stories about beastiality, rape for titillation and incest or pseudo-incest. That's nothing to do with Lovehoney so no reason they should remove facilities from us.

    Some people will talk of a slippery slope - banning beastiality books today, censoring all and sundry tomorrow - but I don't think that's a likely outcome.

    People are free to sell beastiality books if they want - you just can't take the money for them via Paypal.

    Below is an excerpt from Paypal's acceptable use policy - they don't want their service to be used for an illegal activity, which isn't unreasonable.

    Prohibited Activities

    You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

    1. violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation.

    2. relate to transactions involving (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods (e) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.

    1330985317
    rose hip [sign in to see picture]
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    So the rumours are wrong and it is about illegal activities (and/or encouragement/promotion of them) then?

    1330985732
    WandA [sign in to see picture]
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    I think I've heard of previous Paypal controversies concerning adult products but only concerning the US. I think quite a few American companies (off the top of my head - Ebay, Amazon, FB) are much stricter than they would otherwise be for fear of upsetting the right. Why P off anyone, no matter how absurd their idea, if you can straddle a profitable middleground.

    Thankfully, we (at least currently) do not have the same moralising evangelical Christian fuddyduddy foundation for out rightwing nuttiness.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think the balance of public opinion in the UK merits such a short term profit damaging exercise; and it's perceived public opinion that makes these decisions.

    1330988706
    JakeH [sign in to see picture]
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    I wouldn't worry about this, PayPal must be keen to associate with large online retailers such as Lovehoney. They're less likely to be concerned about some (very!) niche (e)book publishers...

    1330991260
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    Lovehoney - Richard wrote:

    We have a good relationship with Paypal, talk to them regularly and there isn't even the shadow of a hint of a suspicion that they will remove payment processing facilities from Lovehoney. Paypal isn't our only payment option.

    Glad to hear it, and I realise that Lh has very sensibly not put all its love-eggs in one basket.

    Lovehoney - Richard wrote:

    Paypal is (quite understandably) concerned about its facilities being used to facilitate payments for stories about beastiality, rape for titillation and incest or pseudo-incest. That's nothing to do with Lovehoney so no reason they should remove facilities from us.

    Firstly, I'm not so sure it is understandable that they should wish to discriminate against certain types of fiction, while letting others off. These are, after all, themes that are dealt with in mainstream fiction, genre fiction of all types, and literary fiction, including literary erotica. Even Anais Nin wrote about incest, and Nabokov dealt with paedophilia. You don't see PayPal dropping major booksellers for stocking these objectionable materials, though.

    It seems that erotic fiction is being targeted purely because of its name.

    Further, even those categories you mention have a deceptively wide presence in the erotic fiction market. I've heard it quoted that 40% of women have fantasies about rape or non-consensual sexual activity. That's a lot of people to tell "your inner thoughts are so wrong that we don't even want to dirty our corporate hands by helping you to buy stories that echo them." And the label "bestiality", while shocking at first, also covers the very popular were-creature sub-genre of erotica and erotic romance. This affects a lot of titles.

    Lovehoney - Richard wrote:

    You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

    1. . . .  (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, .

    This is the key clause - ignore any mention of illegality: illegal things are already illegal, and covered by other legislation. What PayPal is demanding publishers remove from sale is legal material, that they happen to feel uncomfortable with.

    It's censorship by monopoly.

    JakeH wrote:

    I wouldn't worry about this, PayPal must be keen to associate with large online retailers such as Lovehoney. They're less likely to be concerned about some (very!) niche (e)book publishers...

    So, "I'm all right, Jack" is your answer, Jake, is it? Seems a little short-sighted to me, but I do hope you're right. In the mean time, don't try writing anything vaguely provocative, will you?

    1331028095
    ukwanker [sign in to see picture]
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     PayPal banned me because I was buying porn and panties

    1331029718
    Hella Walkington [sign in to see picture]
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    Paypal once banned me for selling rubber clothes.

    We also definitely have at least one book that contains fantasies about beastiality, paedophilia and incest. Maybe we can make that one credit card only. Lol!

    1331030088
    ukwanker [sign in to see picture]
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     the funny thing is they called me and read out all the stuff i was buying. lol

    1331074457
    Mr Monster [sign in to see picture]
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    Lovehoney - Hella wrote:

    Paypal once banned me for selling rubber clothes.

    We also definitely have at least one book that contains fantasies about beastiality, paedophilia and incest. Maybe we can make that one credit card only. Lol!

    Not only that - even the sex tips books could fall foul of the regulations, if they advocate anything illegal, such as sex outdoors. (Tracy Cox take note!)

    1331076367
    Cuddly Hubby [sign in to see picture]
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    I'm surprised by the implication that Paypal receives details of individual goods that one is buying.  I had imagined that the data handed over during the transaction would only include the name of the vendor and the overall payment value.  I suppose that's enough, though, if that vendor specialises in a particular type of item.

    1331076822
    ukwanker [sign in to see picture]
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    Cuddly Hubby wrote:

    I'm surprised by the implication that Paypal receives details of individual goods that one is buying.  I had imagined that the data handed over during the transaction would only include the name of the vendor and the overall payment value.  I suppose that's enough, though, if that vendor specialises in a particular type of item.

     

    I think there are some people who take it upon themselves to spot who is using paypal and they report ones they don't agree with

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